••••-and-run?

Unfortunate incidents are what spurs change, and shouldn't be used as excuses to give up. What am I supposed to do, just let some useless idiot attack or bully me? I think not. BTW, in my town, the local "system" isn't out to burn law-abiding citizens. You guys must live in the People's Republic of Kalifornia. Down with Sheeple! (they are the ones who stab our vets in the back, ya know.) It is for this reason I find myself becoming increasingly machiavellian in my views and less tolerant of supposed "harmless" people. Look at the harm they allow to others as well as themselves.

Kenneth Sohl,

Maybe you'll just have to learn the hard way.

Machiavelli is a poor role model for you to have (unless you want to be a part of the problem).

By the way, your spelling of what my country has become is quite correct.

Good luck to you; and remember to avoid those needless street fights.

Roberto Numero Dos,

El Presidente has mucho big trouble avoiding bankers as the US Secret Service is Dept. of the Treasury which (since the nation's bankruptcy in or around 1933) has been under the supervision of the Federal Reserve Bank's owners (and the Federal Reserve Bank ain't Federal government -- rather it is privately owned by an international group of bankers). Such fun, eh?

Did I mention to avoid those unnecessary street fights -- especially ones which take place near a president who has offended some of the aforementioned bankers while in office (you know, as Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Kennedy, & Reagan did; I don't think any more presidents will turn on the bankers, but one never knows for sure)? And look at all the Iraqis today -- now they can't even have a street fight near anybody that somewhat looks like Saddam H. for fear of US ordnance (or US helicopters) falling on them. What's the world coming to, Bob #2, when people can no longer have nice, quiet street fights?.

Call the police after a street fight? Please!

Senario: You get into a street fight with a gang member, a mobster, or a well-liked local bad-boy somewhere & survive (you've done fairly well so far); your best bet is to get out of Dodge -- immediately ('cause your already in a heap of trouble sticking around -- & if you're recognized, then you're really screwed). But no; you call the police; you fill out a report; you plan to testify in court; and that means that the defendant gets all of your personal information (who you are, where you live, etc.; and his buddies get a real good hard look at you) -- I believe it's called disclosure or some-such-thing (now you're definitely screwed... you knuckle-head).

(1) You may not be in any physical condition to testify (as the dead tend to be rather silent).

(2) If you testify -- whether or not you get a conviction -- you can expect revenge (you're screwed for the rest of your -- possibly short, & almost definitely more miserable -- life).

So, avoid street fights as much as possible. Leave the scene of a street fight (bar fight, fire-fight, whatever fight) as soon as possible (this isn't considered as hit-&-run unless you're doing your striking & throwing with a Ford Mustang or some-such-motor-vehicle). Keep government out of it as much as possible. And if necessary, then relocate ASAP. Survive. Avoidance & escape = good ideas. Looking/asking for trouble & hanging around area where trouble has just occurred (police or no police) = bad ideas.

The police are never under a legal obligation to protect any one of us (I know this for fact; I've read several US Supreme Court cases on the subject, all with the same conclusion). Self-defense is up to you. Learn how to fight hand-to-hand; learn how to use a blade; learn how to shoot; learn ways to avoid trouble; learn ways to escape from trouble. And good luck to you (as it's a cruel world).

Sounds about right, but you forgot to mention stalking and assassinating the other guy first, that way, you keep your own cringing and hiding to a minimum, LOL!

SysOp,

maybe I lost something but could you explain how did they trace you after both fights?

In my hometown, in my youth days, it was hard people you fought weren't able to recognize you so what we used to do was going immediately to the hospital with few friends and tell the doctor you had an headache from being hit while doing some sport (hockey, football etc.) or saying our hands were injured because of a mobike crash .
So in the hospital's journal that what it was reported then, togheter with names of many witnesses.

When the guy asked for prosecution (rarely) it was hard for him to demostrate he wasn't trying to sue you just for having heard you had an accident and taking advantage from that.

Also, my friends who work as bouncers have a well-proven procedure: one of them nails the guy, the other seven swear he never touched the guy but, on the contrary, the idiot fell when drunk.

European,

Sometimes they don't catch you (that's my point: you escape detection); but if you hang around & call the police, then you will not escape the situation (again my point). Unfortunately, government & businesses have cameras in many places here in the US (& this trend is growing)... plus new face-recognition technology... so if the government really wants to know who you are, then there's an increasing chance that they'll find out... & track you down (& an increased chance that if they're looking for someone else who looks a little like you, that you'll be fingered, harassed, & possibly even killed).

Your bouncer friends' procedure (the ol' "false-witness" trick) works well on those not seriously bent on revenge (criminal gangs, including rogue cops use the same tactic here with success as well). However, here if a group of bartenders do that to the "wrong guy," at least one of them will end up shot (or have their property damaged) down the road -- because they're easily identified (ergo: easy targets for the vengeful types).

Kenneth Sohl,

I purposely didn't mention such things as stalking & killing suspected organized crime members because I'm discussing legal self-defense (when & how to avoid trouble as much as possible when involved in self-defense situations), not murder (besides, belonging to an organized crime family doesn't necessarily make one filthy-bad any more than belonging to a police force or some other government organization makes one squeaky-clean... they're just different mafias, different gangs, different governing bodies -- that's all). Wyatt Earp & his gang of outlaws ended another outlaw gang problem by committing multiple murders (as they were rogue-cop-types seeking their own brand of justice, outside of the law while wearing badges); but does an end that you (or someone else) might favor justify any & all means (those in power today would like you to think that way... they even want you to consider the torturing of suspects as A-OK... just forget about things like innocent until proven guilty & no cruel or unusual punishments, eh?)? Did I mention that Machiavelli is a poor role model for you to have? Really.

european;

The first fight that Tim mentioned occurred while I was driving. I was on a cell phone with dispatchers while the chase occurred. As Tim states, the man was also driving his Suburban truck on the wrong side of a divided road into oncoming traffic to chase me. People had already called into police on their cell phones.

The second fight Tim mentions with the 3 men occurred at the popular Griffith Observatory up in the mountains of L.A. In the 1970’s they staged light shows in it.
At the time there was one small road that lead up/down to access it and it had heavy security.

I am in my late forties and have been in many fights as a young buck. I was able to escape all but two after inflicting damage.

You have to remember that in the 1970’s there were no cell phones to call the police about you or your car. In the 1970’s in my area of the USA you didn’t have to worry too much about sticks, guns, and knives either.

My favorite "almost fight" story.

My in my 20's my friends and I would always meet at a local bar every Wednesday night. Some nights, there would be over 20 of us there.

On one night, when we had a pretty big crew, one of the guys decided that he wanted to go to a topless bar very badly. He wanted us all to go very badly. Fine. We held out until he offered up to pay the cover charge for all of us, and buy the first round of drinks.

So we all go up to this bar. Being so many of us, we ended up being seated in small groups all around the place. The guy who wanted to go so badly and I ended up sitting at the main stage, and everyone else was seated all over the place.

He sat to my left, and to my right was a group of three guys, nurising shots, and trying to act like badasses.

My friend, on the other hand, was having a ball. He was dancing in his seat, banging on the counters, singing, ... and the shot glass of the guy next to me dribbled a few drops over the edge.

He demanded that my buddy buy him a shot, since he "spilled" his. I thought not. We argued.

He stood up. I stood up. My buddy stood up. His TWO buddies stood up. My EIGHTEEN OTHER buddies stood up. The three guys sat down. The bouncers stood up ... and threw the three guys out ( (A) we were buying more drinks, and (B) there were 20 of us in our goup, and only 3 in the other group. Even bouncers understand economics).

So that was the fight that never happened.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

I had a similar problem in the 1970's.

I was at a movie theater with a friend and his girlfriend. I was already an instructor in San Soo and he was a lower belt. Luckily my Grandmaster and Instructor Ted Sias always started a class on how you should avoid fights and how to go about doing it.

Anyway, There was a man before the film started that was just bringing up mucus and hawking big spits all over the theater.

I was sitting behind him several rows back and people in the theater didn’t want to say anything. After several more time I was steaming and yelled down to the guy that he better stop or I would put an end to it. So of course he spit again.

I wasn’t aware of my environment at the time and didn’t realize the whole row he was sitting in was filled up with this guys friends sitting one space apart so they didn’t look like homosexuals (common practice when I was younger).

He stood up, along with his friends and walked back to me. I was on the aisle seat and my friend is acting like he doesn’t know whom I am.

How I diffused it was to say in a very loud voice so that the whole theater could hear and without standing up, “So, it takes you and all your friends to fight one guy, huh?” blah, blah, blah. I lucked out and the guy and all his friends walked back and sat down. Nothing happened and he quit spitting after being embarrassed. I was very lucky.

Make sure you are aware of your environment at all times. I have heard many "not aware of your enviroment" stories told to me over the years.

Ya, that "environment" thing most people don't think about, but Mike, the way you put your last post is hard to argue with.

Mike,

bartenders have the tendency to dislike being ambushed in the parking lot or the like, and usually here people who work in clubs (but in the U.S. also I guess)will have somebody behind them, normally more efficient avenging faults than the average drunken idiot (who acknoledges it even if he doesn't like it). Of course if you nail the wrong guy, here and everywhere, you can be in deep ••••• or face legal troubles, but in my country there's a saying which-roughly tranlsated- sounds:
"It's better a bad trial than a beautiful funeral".

SysOp,
they tracked you in the suburban truck's case easily (police was there)but I did not understand about the other situation at at the Observatory. Could you clarify? Somebody wrote down your license or police came again on the spot?

Normally that it is what it happens, they read the license numbers, and since I drive a mobike I keep its license always really dirty, impossible to read. Yes, police can give a ticket for it (never happened in 20 years) but it's a nice insurance for anonimity.

I hate to burst your delusional bubble but being the only person in a given area on a 'mobike' with a muddy license plate doesn't give you much anonimity. Face it- you're not roaming city to city regularly like some hells angel on a harley. Everyone sees you every day.
Whether you're 'aware' of it or not... all the folks in your city could pick you out of a line up with no problem- or could tell joe copper "yea, it was that paranoid guy who rides his bike by here at 10am everyday"

Bob n° II,

I don't engage a fight around the block, if that it's what you meant.

In every other situation -not fighting the next door guy- it works pretty fine. I hate to burst your delusional bubble but police never came to ring my bell in 20 years.

"It's him, officer, it's him. I recognize him!" without a license (or some kind of proof) happens only in movies, at least in a city like mine where you see thousands of motorbikes..

p.s.

Why do you call me paranoid?
Is it the martial etiquette you learnt at the dojo or the way your parents grew you?

I agree with european here, ask a non biker to identify a bike, they'll tell you what colour it was and that's about all they remember (certainly won't be make, model and plate.)

Chances of them recognising you underneath a crash helmet and face mask are pretty small too.

And providing you abide by the 'don't S*** where you eat' rule escaping on a bike is vastly superior (mainly due to the speed and manouverability) to a car.

However avoidance has to be better than a bad trial, or a good funeral. Surely?

Hi european;
They had a Laserium show at the Griffith Observatory that attracted crowds like a a rock concert. Mostly people under drugs in the 1970's.

Therefore, much security zoomed up and down on 3 wheel vehicles on this very long small windy road that travelled for miles down the mountain.

I was near the top of the road leading to the observatory with a date and just put two guys to the ground that needed medical attention. The third guy just froze and backed off because he couldn't believe I just downed two men before his eyes.

European & All,

Paranoid individual = an individual with a heightened sense of awareness.

A paranoid way of thinking can help one to avoid ambushes (& ambushes come in a wide variety of styles).

I've become more paranoid over the years; and as a result, I've noticed that most of my paranoid-based decisions or options were appropriate most of the time.

So, as a paranoid, I state: government/corporate-sponsored ugly times right now, & more wide-spread (downright vicious) government/corporate-sponsored ugliness coming soon to a neighboorhood near you (that is, to all of our neighborhoods). Right now people say its (A.D.) 2003 going on to 2004, when actually it's closer to being 1984 (we're getting closer to a World-Government with agents that spy upon & brutally control its "citizens" to the utmost degree). So become aware & prepare.

The down side of being an aware (& thus paranoid) individual, is that too few common folk will listen -- even when facts are presented with visual aids (it's like talking to brick walls; and some of these walls eventually fall on the very ones who were trying to protect them from damage).

SysOp,

Good going!