Interesting thing I noticed is that sparring is usually not mentioned in IMA curriculum. For instance on:
http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/300Baji004.htm
It states: "aji Quan training occur in several stages:
Stance training


Stepping


Forms


Applications


Two man forms


Weapons"

On this link:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/sanquan.html
It states: "Standard curriculum of Xingyiquan includes Standing Methods (Zhan Zhuang), Five Elements Fists (Wu Xing Quan) and Twelve (Animal) Shapes (Shi Er Xing), empty hand routines (performed by one person or with partner) and routines with weapons. However not many practitioners of Xingyiquan have heard much about Three Fists (San Quan) - Zuan, Guo and Jian, and probably even less have ever seen them."
But it does not mention anything on sparring.

Maciej,

Do you think any of the old time masters gained all that great fighting ability by ONLY doing forms, standing and one or two man drills?

Forget what you've interpretted in your reading but think for yourself for a few minutes... Do you think the real deal masters devloped all their skill without sparring?

Shane

But how did they spar if they had no gloves, protective equipment, etc.? Maybe they really weren't good fighters just legends?

Maybe they masterbated right before so their Chi levels would lessen and they wouldn't maime each other. Maybe they used chicken corpses for gloves. I guess we'll never know for sure.

How did Western boxers spar before gloves or Muffins were used?

Don't know about CIMA but in pre-sport karate (1800s) there was a lot of two man drills, with references to 'free sparing' only for high level students. Have seen references that sparing was readily learned by students who had good basic skills, but conterproductive if they did not.

Maciej,
Yes, contact sparring was part of Ming and Qing era Chinese martial arts. And yes, the Chinese (even back in the Ming era) have enough brains to invent protective gear. Let me quote myself from my wife and I's upcoming book. This quote is in reference to a Chinese martial arts training manual called Record of Arms and the timeframe is about 1620. The person named Shi was the teacher of the author of the book Record of Arms. Here is the quote:

"One of Shi's instructional methods was to ask his students to wrap their torsos with paper and bamboo, and then to wrap another layer of leather on top, as a form of protective gear. The students then practiced attacking each other with moderately hard contact. When Shi taught, he taught orally and if the students did not perform the movement correctly then he would not teach them the next movement. This approach was very common among traditional teachers. Shi was also very keen on having his students understand how the techniques should be used in real life; thus the full contact approach."

Hopefully that answers your question. Now I have one; are you a full time idiot or just do it part time?

Happy holidays,
Brian

Check out this thread:
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1071702612;start=0

Note that sparring is not mentioned past push hands by any of those people.

Maciej, what is it exactly that you are trying so hard to convince yourself?

iirc from Draeger and Smith, old-school sparring invloved a lot of body contact, not much to the head. Plus throws, chin na etc depending on the style. Striking seems to have always been the skill that is hardest to play with.

(Take care, Brian! - the blinding light of your winning personality is causing a bumpy ride again!)

Happy Holidays Snitch,
The reason I gave Maciej some grief at the end of the post was that I did not care for the implications of his question which seemed to be:
1. Ming and Qing era martial artists in China were too dumb to figure out how to make protective gear.

2. Ming and Qing era martial artists in China were too dumb to figure out that a good way to learn about fighting was..to practice fighting.

Those people were my "kung fu" ancestors!, they were not nitwits. And even though they were living in pre-scientific times, some things (like pad your body and fist and you can hit without doing major damage or a good way to learn something is by actually doing it) are obvious to anybody, anytime.

So that is why he got a little Christmas sarcasm from Santa Brian.

Take care,
Brian

lol. btw

http://www.eazy-e.net/upload/uploads/catsantaballsinmouth-RabidDeathMoose.jpg

looks like it's full-time.

Maciej- there are ancient pictographs of Mians and Mesoteponians (sorry- spell check isn't working) showing fighters with gloves on (probably cloth wraps- but still... protective).
Did your mother have any normal children?

that's not cma.

are you still checking with your mom before answering my question?