Good point Tim. I've seen on the discovery channel where a guy layed on a bed of nails. Because the nails themselves aren't that sharp and the force is spread over a large number of them in one demonstration the guy had around 1000 lbs of force put on him without even one nail puncturing his skin. Its all show.

I compare it to someone giving a demonstation where they hit you with their car at a couple miles an hour. You are fine. Does that mean you are impervious to getting hit by a car? No, when the car is driving 70 mph down the highway and you get hit in a freak hobbit catching accident you will be a splat on someone's broken windshield. (Yes, it is 3 AM in Pennsylvania)

I once heard the amazing Randy say something like he wasn't impressed seeing a man lying on a bed of nails, to see someone lying on just one nail would be impressive.

Does that mean that we should be impressed by the shaolin monks who are lifted onto a supposedly sharpened post, stiffen their bodies and then are spun on the point of a spear by their fellows?

We have an excellent middle-aged shaolin style practitioner locally who is a Chinese who emigrated here from Vietnam. He does all the "party tricks" in demonstrations (breaking spears with his neck, being beaten with sticks in the throat and balls, etc.) and doesn't claim that they are anything special. He is also a great fighter from having been in many real fights.

His most impressive stunt is reserved for after he's had a few drinks, he'll smash a beer bottle on his shin... and keep smiling.

Vlad the Impaler specialized at having people lie on one nail. It proved disasterous for all of them.

Vlad Tepesh or "Dracul -a" (literally "son of the Dragon" as his father had been in the Order of the Dragons, a Christian Order of knights dedicated to fighting the Moslem Turkish threat in Eastern Europe in the 15th Century) is still considered a national hero in Roumania.

Recent historical research has shown that he was a capable and ruthless ruler, a brave warrior and also what we would now call a sexually sadistic sociopath probably because of the abuse he received as a youth while a prisoner of the Turkish Sultan.

By the way, the British author Bram Stoker knew about the legends of Vlad's rather gory approach to capital punishment and had visited Transylvania and, by some accounts, the ruins of Vlad's castle. Good background for the famous novel with the famous vampire.

No charge for the history lesson in honour of Halloween!

Serious harm wrote an interesting message about the past:

"People actually have animal natures within them. THere were actual mermaids and Minotuars in the past. Look at the sphinx. The tarot cards are stages of enlightenment, beginning and ending with the fool card, a fool for the universla/god's will, "Gypsies", or " Egyptians". Same with the I ching. There were also a group of humans with both sex organs. There are also inner earth underground tunnels. One opening is in a huge deep canyon in Arizona where the HOpi emerged from. The Hopi and Tibetan language is very similar but some words are opposite from each other."

And what does this have to do with the Golden Age of Kung fu. Get with the program!

Dennis:
Part of the "program" of a discussion forum is to try and share information with those who may actually have an interest in learning. Education should never be so narrow that you focus only on being a specialist in one thing while ignoring all others.

One of the ideas circulating in the so-called Golden Age of Kung fu was that martial arts would help the people on a variety of levels ... not just make them more effecient thugs.

As to Enforcer's message ... it reminded me of my college days; although, of course, I never inhaled either!

No. Enforcer is simply transcribing the junk that Serious Harm wrote, which is just a bunch of babbling •••• so people like you will get the impression that he is privy to secret knowledge; when in reality it is stuff he regurgetates from the garbage he reads on the internet. But I guess you can always sugar-coat a turd and try to eat it. Personally, I would flush that sucker.

Pantheistic and New Age garbage go way back. But it's a hoot as to what people buy into. And I'm not saying what he is repeating isn't true, I'm just saying that it's garbage that is better left in the trashcan.

Humans with both sex organs! Yeah, they're called hermaphrodites. The Hopi tribe of American Indians come from a secret place--called planet earth!!! They are human beings like you and I. For Godsake--gow up!

Man . . . I beginning to sound like a grumpy old man. Sorry about that. There's a shitload of stuff that is unexplainable, but let's stick to the topic.

I don't remember writing that I agreed with Enforcer or Serious Harm.

By the way, I am all "gowed up" as well and having done so have given up trying to reason with people who believe in secrets.

On the other hand, I also don't tend to get vitriolic with those I have never met who don't bother to read my posts as they are typed.

As to sticking to the topic, that's very difficult to do when exploring human nature and the martial arts on any meaningful level. Tim is one of the best martial arts instructors I have experienced at a workshop level and even he was known to wander about a topic -- often to great benefit for those of us who like to think.

I have met Tim on several occasions and he always stays on topic: martial arts. He breaks down the arts to its most simplistic level and never over-complicates them. As "meaningful" as the arts may appear on somekind of esoteric level, they are all just methods of fighting or defending oneself.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

hobbits are real:
http://proxify.com/p/011110A0000110/http/www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/10/27/dwa rf.cavewoman.ap/index.html

I think enforcer is serious harm. Anyway, this has nothing to do with MA and for all anyone knows it could be just an dwarf or a species of monkey. This doesn't belong on the board.

Tim said:
"As for the rest of you who need to know, there are no hobbits, either"

You is wrongo:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=570&u=/nm/20041027/sc_nm/science_homin id_dc_1&printer=1

That's crazy. Check out this site too:
http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/hobbits.html

Absolutely amazing.

Tim, have you ever heard of the poison hand?

from:
http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/Gu02.html

"The First National Tournament - Nanjing, 1928

It was October, 1928 and the Chinese government decided to unite together the Chinese people by using Martial Arts. The goal of the National Arts Center (Guo Ming Dong) was to promote the exchange of knowledge and to tear down the curtain of prejudice that had existed between the styles and to encourage the slogan, "A Strong Mind and a Strong Body builds a Strong Country." Since the Boxer Rebellion, there had not been a national tournament and naturally the people took an interest. Invitations were sent out and all the different styles were to be represented. Many masters turned down the invitation and instead sent their top disciples. Rules of the tournament were simple.

Rule One: No poking or gouging of the eyes.
Rule Two: No poking or grabing of the throat.
Rule Three: No groin strikes.

The contest was divided into two divisions, combat and non-combat. The non-combat division was competition in the performance of hand and weapon sets on stage. The winner for weapons division was Master Keng Te Hai, of Tai Sheng Shaolin Monkey Style. One of the most embarrassing moments was when a famous Bagua Master, Fu Zhensong, performed his Bagua style. As he was so involved in his Bagua movements, he did not observe the condition of the floor on the stage. The stage was uneven and was not built very well. Proper tools for building and good solid wood were scarce in those times. The builders used any wood that they could find and fitted the stage the best they could. As a result, Fu Zhensong, tripped over a wooden plank as he walked the Bagua circle. He was moving so fast that when he stumbled, he could not regain his balance and fell off the stage. Except for a bruised ego, Fu Zhensong was not injured. Still, government official were impressed and later appointed Fu Zhensong as one of the "Five Tigers of the North".

In the combat division, the contests were fierce. Many styles left sorrowful impression on the audience because the representatives of particular styles did not measure up to their competition. Gu Ruzhang fought two fighters. In the first fight, he won easily. In the second fight, Gu Ruzhang was matched with a Bagua Fighter with Cinnabar Sand Palms or Zhu Sha Zhang. He too was a master of Iron Sand Palm and whose palms were red. Hence the name, Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm. Gu Ruzhang's Iron Sand Palm was called Black Sand Palm or Hei Sha Zhang. Naturally, Gu Ruzhang's palms were black. Both Iron Sand Palms are known as Poison Sand Palm or Tu Sha Chang. The training methods for both Cinnabar and Black Iron Sand Palms are similar.

The first stage - Strengthen the palm by striking green peas. This is to numb the nerve endings in the palm. Later, the peas are replaced by or iron chips or iron ball bearing. These iron pellets become imbedded into the flesh.

The second stage - The palms are thrust into hot sand to further strengthen them.

The third stage - Diluted poison is added to the iron pellets. With time, the poison dose is increased slowly in concentration while the body builds immunity towards the poison.

After drilling in each stage, herbs are prepared to nurse the hands to prevent injury. Special herbal liquids are used to reduce swelling and alleviate pain. Sometimes the pain was so great that practitioners would turn to western drugs such as opium and heroin to kill the pain. Herbs also play an important role in the last stage, since herbs prevent the body from absorbing too much of the toxic poison. The difference between the Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm and Black Iron Sand Palm is the type of poison used in the training. As the fighter strikes his opponent, the poison is transferred from the palm into the opponent. The opponent usually dies because of the poison. Many times blisters and welts would developed and would give the appearance of a snakebite. Hence the name, Poison Hand.

When the audience saw that Gu Ruzhang was matched against the Cinnabar Master, the fight was titled, Black Iron Sand Palm Master verses Red Iron Sand Palm Master. The Red Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm Master used his Bagua techniques to circle Gu Ruzhang and looked for an opening. When the Red Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm Master attacked, Gu Ruzhang avoid the deadly red palm and counter-attacked. Within three moves Gu Ruzhang struck his opponent with his Black Iron Sand Palm and knocked his opponent down. On his opponent's chest, was Gu Ruzhang's black palm imprint. Gu Ruzhang's opponent was quickly escorted off the stage and was treated for the poison.

As the tournament got neared its end, the fights became even more violent and bloody. When there were only thirteen contestants left, the government officials stopped the tournament. Death would result if the tournament was allowed to continue and that would not have served the country's needs. The government declared the last thirteen fighters as China's Best and were called `The Thirteen Champions of All China'. The thirteen champions voted among themselves and agreed that Gu Ruzhang was the tournaments best fighter. Many of the champions felt that Gu Ruzhang skills were equal to the last famous Black Iron Sand Palm master, Zhao Yijian, who exceeded Gu Ruzhang by one generation."

HAHAHA! Michael, my Poison Palm stuff is true!!!!!

It must be true because it's on the net????

There's an old Sufi teaching tale about the sage Nasruddin who was having a meal in his local inn and listening to a traveler bragging about how erudite his philosophy was and how no one was his intellectual equal.

To prove his worth, the visitor took a manuscipt out of his bag and threw it on the table for all to see. "There", he said, " this book contains the proof of all my arguments and it's true because I wrote every word".

The crowd of peasants seemed impressed so Nasruddin went outside for a moment and returned with a brick in his hand. He went over to the crowded table and the preening visitor and tossed the brick onto the table next to the book.

"Here then", he announced, " is the proof that I am also a master builder."

The crowd dissolved into laughter and moved away from the visiting braggart as all the locals knew that Nasruddin's house, which he had built himself, had collapsed only the morning before.

Michael, I like the story. To prove that poison palm is POSSIBLE. I will begin training in it. Anyone know how to get some decent poison in large quantities? I wonder if rat poison would work.

This is silly. I think there is a good possiblity that poison palm used to be practiced. Its not silly chi-babble. It uses basic things like poison and building a resistance to it. Assasins and stuff have been using poison for thousands of years. Do i think poison palm is kinda stupid? Yes. Am I going to train in it? No. This is pointless.

What has been written and said about the fighting monks and martial artists of old China is as full of "wild history" as the legends of the American old West or the knights of the Middle Ages in Europe.

It's often said that the truth is often stranger than fiction but it's important to remember that common-sense is often the best judge of any stories that sound too good to be true.

Perhaps, the best way to gain "poison hand" martial arts skill of any kind is to rub sweat and hard work into your palms on a daily basis for many years ...