Hello Tim,

I have read on a German messageboard that Torsten Kanzmeyer (a student of Helmut Barthl and founder of "Lei Gong Nei Quan") has visited you in Los Angeles and that you have crossed hands / exchanged techniques with him.

I would be very interested in your impressions and opinion of his fighting style, body mechanics and power generation. Do these ressemble Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua or is Torsten's approach different? If they are different, do you think his methods could be combined with Chinese IMA or are the two approaches contradictory?

I am asking because I am considering going to one of his seminars or visiting his school, and as I am in France and his nearest seminars all take place in Germany, I am trying to find out beforehand if this would be worthwile.

Thanks a lot in advance!

Marc

I'd be curious to know as well, since I've seen some clips of his that looked a little silly (or rather the person he was hitting looked silly), and I'm curious to cross check with someone I know and respect.

Where in France are you Marc?

Ed

While I'm posting I owe you an apology Tim. I said Iid organise something for you here in Paris in the Autumn and I didn't (it got vetoed by her indoors on account of me working too many weekends - yes Jack you can laugh at me and send me a case of your finest mexican limes). Your server rejects our servers e-mails so my attempts to tell you before didn't get through.

Anyway on the bright side I still want to bring you over to Paris, it's just arranging when.

best wishes

Ed

Hi Ed,

All I want to know is if she was walking funny in the morning?

That a boy.

You frogs are funny people. I like you but you are differnt.

However, you chicks are sloober silly in bed. Some of my favorites. I remeber one that had so many multiple orgasims I thought I was going to have to taker to the hospital for an IV of Valium. Then there was her sister... Well one night at a resturant in Paris I had a nipple in each hand and... Forget it, I'm just missing home.

Anyways you guys know how to live better than most civilized countries.

Just shower a bit more, would ya?

Love,

Just Jack in with ya

Hi Marc,

Torsten came by my academy when he was in L.A. He is a very nice guy and very enthusiastic about his method. I think Torsten has some interesting ideas about yielding to gravity, and he had some interesting drills.

He sparred with one of my students and me. I think Torsten has probably not had much practical sparring or fighting training yet, when free sparring, I threw him quite a few times in a few minutes, and he has no ground fighting skills. He also said he has a stick fighting method, but I didn't spar with him with the sticks. I do give him a lot of credit for actually sparring.

I invited him to come back and train with us, I think with some training he could really begin to apply his theories to fighting.



Ed,
No worries, looking forward to seeing you.

Hi Tim,

thanks a lot for your account of the meeting! I have two more questions:

1) According to what I read on the German forum, Torsten has a unique method of hitting, of which he says that it is completely different from a "classical" fajing, and he can apparently hit very hard and very "deeply into the body" with it. How did you experience his method of hitting (he seems to have demonstrated it for/on you)?

2) Did you spar in grappling/BJJ or free fighting, (i.e. was striking and kicking allowed in your sparring format)? Apparently, one of his strenghts seems to lie in evading hits and hitting the other guy, so if it was a grappling-only format, maybe that is why he wasn't really at ease with it?

Thanks again.

Marc

P.S. If anyone here is interested in the discussion in German, here's the link (the visit at Tim's school is brought up at page 7 of the discussion):

http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/forum/f52/bruchlose-bewegung-32872/

Marc,

Torsten put his fist on by stomach and pushed it in. This could be what you are referring to. I let him do it a few times. I didn't see any unusual method of power striking, maybe it is something different.

We did some "push hands." We free sparred standing up, without strikes. I threw him several times with foot sweeps and leg tackles. Torsten asked if I could throw him without touching his legs so I threw him with hip techniques a few more times. I don't think he has had much experience with wrestling and throwing, maybe he is more familiar with striking. We put gloves on and Torsten tried to hit a couple of times, but we didn't spar. He grappled on the ground with one of my students and me, he was willing to try, but I don't think he has ever grappled before.

Like I said above, I found Torsten to be a a very nice guy, and he has an interesting theory about working with gravity. I don't know what he teaches, but fighting aside, he may have elements that people who practice Taijiquan forms may like.

I think there are lots interesting things people can study in the martial arts: physicality, conditioning, mental focus, discipline, body use/dynamics, physical alignment etc. etc. Fighting is only an element of the martial arts, it's a very important element, but not one that every martial artist will focus on. To truly focus on the fighting element of the martial arts one must actually fight, a lot, thinking about fighting, and learning things that are useful in fighting (techniques, methodologies, etc.) cannot take the place of experiencing a fight. So it's quite posable that a marital arts teacher be very good at many parts of the martial arts and not be a good fighter, and by the same token, you will never become a good fighter without participating in fights. Tim has spent a lot of his time on actual fighting ability, and really puts forth an effort to fight and spar regularly, this is an element you might not find in many other teachers. This is not to say that other teachers (ones not focused on fighting) don't have lots to teach, it's just that they are not good fighters. In all honesty most modern martial artists are not willing to put forth the effort (pain, time, sweat, blood, fear) to become a proficient fighter, and do not want to engage in regular fighting, so there really isn't a need for them to find a teacher who can really fight.

-Chris Hein

Hi Tim,

thanks for the summary. I figured there might be something like that going on from the clips I saw.

Jack, Like you I'm living South of the border...originally I'm English, or is that Dutch.. and I moved here five years ago. Difference is there are more laws in France than England. A lot of people do ignore them though -especially the politicians.

Yes there are some nice women here.

Marc Where in France are you? If I get my dates sorted are you up for a seminar with Tim?

Ed

Tim,

thanks again. That pretty much clears up what I wanted to know. Concerning Torsten's supposed hitting method, I guess it is indeed the same as the stomach push. The descriptions of that push/hit just sounded a lot more spectacular on the German discussion forum... I guess that might be explained with a difference in perspective and in the degree of (over-)enthusiasm of the person pushed.

Chris: I understand that there are many interesting aspects to the martial arts other than just fighting. However, Torsten is presented (at least by some of the people who went to his seminars in Germany) as someone actually able to use internal martial arts in fighting. I guess that, too, may be due to a difference in perspective / previous exposure to fighting.

Ed: We have met each other, I have been to a few classes at your school in spring 2004. Since then, I was in Germany, and I have been back in Paris since this autumn, trying to finally complete my thesis. That last aspect means little time for regular training, but if you do organize a seminar with Tim in Paris, I would really like to come (even if there are other seminars that are open to beginners, please let me know: Marc93 at gmx dot de ).

Marc

Torsten seminar is not worth it. He'll just tell you how he is so giving, dance around like a fairy magician and twirl a stick like a band leader. He probably was, IMO. He kind of has that band kid look about him.

Hi torstenwitness,

sometimes people are to stupid to learn something. Obviously your are one of them.

You declare all the seminar participants at emptyflower as idiots. Thank you for that.

You seem to be the exception. As i said before, you are simnply to stupid.

Keep hiding in the dark.

Paul-01

No the emptyflower guys are not stupid. They're nice guys.

They're actually too nice to say that Torsten was full of himself and really didn't have much skill.

I will keep hiding in the dark, but at least I'm smarter than you. I know the difference between the word to and too when used in a sentence.

Dummy!

If I was king of the internet, I'd put grammEr police to death.

Real martial artists can't even read bitches! I don't even know what I am typing. Its garbeldygook to me.

Although we have never met in person, I have heard very good things about Torsten from some very high level practitioners..From some that I hold in the highest respect!
I have even read good things about him from your student Maynard Ancheta

Tim, when you fought him, was it in a non-rehersed free fighting enviornment?

I have also heard that Torsten's punches sting like a hundred needles piercing your skin..

Torstenwitness..I wouldn't talk •••• if I were you..
From what I hear he is to nice of a guy to ever waist his time on you, but I'm sure he could kick your ass if he so desired.Stop trollin' Beiach!!

WXW

Right, non-rehearsed free fighting.

I find the different feedback interesting. I guess it depends on one's background and level of skill.

Has anyone else sparred with Torsten, besides just "pushing hands?"

I have also heard that Torsten's punches sting like a hundred needles piercing your skin..

ooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

well i can give a mean indian burn myself.

I know that Mike Strong had sparred fullcontact with Torsten in non-rehearsed free fighting.

For all of you that don't know...Mike is a powerhouse, and has trained with,{and lived with} Kumar Frantiz, Gu Heming, Uncle Bill, Su Dong Chen,... just to name a few...

When I asked Mike about Torsten, he had nothing but good things to say about him, and his style. Mike thinks very highly of Torsten, and because of that,.. it is enough to get my attention, because I think very highly of Mike!

WXW

P.S. Mike is one of the few people in this world that actually "gets" real gung fu. I highly recommend to anybody that is mannerful to seek him out...You won't regret it...unless of course you challange him,.. in which case...I'll pray for your mother. Peace

Mike Strong has never trained with Master Su Dong-chen. One of his students has but not Mike.

Mike Strong, and Su Dong Chen, are friends..
Mike sent his student Fabian to train with Su Laoshi.

But thats all beside the point...
Mike knows his ••••.
He said that Torsten has something special..And the things that Mike Strong says,..come to pass.

Tim,
Did Torsten show you his methods, and principals?
If so,.. What do you think of them?

WXW