For anyone who has been involved in any kind of a serious confrontation on the street: how did the situation develop? At what point did you become aware that somebody was out to get you? Beyond obvious signs like abusive and hostile language, were there other indicators you picked up on before any overt physical attack was made?

I'll let Tim tell about my exploits with the "painter..."

Macaco fino

Five years ago I was in a bar/club in Van Nuys watching a friend's band perform. I'd taken a seat at a table against a wall (my back to the wall) on my right side was a woman I had just met, on my left was a large vending machine- directly in front of me was the table- beyond that was an open area where a better band's audience might have stood. The narrow space I'd entered my seat through soon became blocked by a very large, very drunk guy. Judging by the size of his forearms I'd guess he was a steel worker- but we never got around to discussing occupations.

The drunk, for some reason, decided I was his new best friend. Repeatedly he slapped me fiercely on the back- hit me in the shoulder- and yelled directly into my ear that this was the best band he'd ever seen.

I'm a patient man. I knew the guy was just drunk and figured he'd go away... he didn't. This went on for about 15 minutes (4 songs). The guy pushed his sweaty forehead against my face one too many times in an attempt to convince me that the bass player was John Goodman. I reached across with my right hand- grabbed the wet hair on the back of his head- pulled his right ear to my mouth and said calmly, "I know you're trying to have a good time but I've had enough of you. Leave me alone and don't touch me again."

I stand over 6 feet tall but am on the "very" thin side. The fellow EASILY out weighed me by 100 pounds. In retrospect the scene must have looked like a night when Gilligan finally has had enough of the Skipper's shit.

Hearing my statement the guy stepped back and took a good look at me. Having decided I posed no threat he came at me screaming that he was going to beat the living shit out of me etc. etc. Instinctively I knew that I had no chance at all in that booth. If he started swinging or grabbing he'd be on top of me and trapped by the girl, the table and the machine I would not be able to fight back. I stood up- surprised that I was still looking up at the monster- he was as tall as he was beefy.

We were nose to nose- I remember him yelling that he was going to kill me as he put his right hand on my chest and I saw his left hand begin to swing the beer bottle it held at my face. Both hands went for his head. My right got a firm grip on the back of his head- my left palm cradled his chin. I pushed up on his chin and pulled down on the back of his head as I circle stepped around him. It was an odd feeling- effortless- as I walked around him- he shrieked and fell onto (and broke) the table where I'd been sitting. I stepped back and removed my new shirt for what I was sure would be the fight of (and for) my life.

He was dazed, it took a second for him to get his baring and get back to his feet (just enough time for me to think 'go for the groin' 'go for the throat'). Luckily, before the behemoth could charge me the club's bouncer grabbed him and with the aide of 3 other patrons ejected the flailing maniac from the bar. It was an amazing show of strength to see how he tossed the bouncer around like a rag doll before the other guys helped out. (I would have helped- but I had no grudge with the guy. I was only going to engage if he invaded my space. The way I saw it- he should've
realized he was being a jerk and bought me a beer)

The bouncer came over to me afterward and said "How the fuck did you do that?" The bouncer said he weighed 230lbs and the guy was way too strong for him "...but you just dropped him. That's gotta be the weirdest thing I've ever seen!"

not able to explain any better I just said it was "an ancient Chinese secret" (little did I know).

That circular movement frigging saved my teeth and probably a few of my facial bones. My father had taught me that technique when I was about 6. But I'd never tried it on any one. I just seemed logical at the time. I believe Bagua has the same movement as one of the 'Monkey' applications in Sun Style. The circular aspect of Bagua is what most attracted me to the style. But in all honesty... If Tim was teaching hop-scotch I'd still make the hour+ drive down twice a week.)

I have a feeling that someday one of the hundreds of techniques Tim has shown me will come to my aide at the logical time. I always avoid trouble when I can... if I can't I can't.

(sorry for the length of my story).

I like the story. Nice level of detail, man . . . it wasn't too long. I mean you showed the setting, what you did, what happened after . . . cool. No pontifical poetry or verbose verbalizing neither. Good stuff.

Does Tim teach hop-scotch?

Nice touch, SG. Kind of reads like one of Robert Smith's stories under the alias John Gilbey . . . only yours reads more realistically. That kind of head-leveraging technique is taught in aikido and jiu jitsu, with cooperation on the part of the person whose head is being torqued. It's also taught in water lifesaving.

Tim,

Are you going to allow Man Of Many Faces to get away with a phrase like "No pontifical poetry or verbose verbalizing neither"!?!

I liked the way Man of Many Faces used his phrases. He cunningly used "pontifical" and "verbose" as two separate modifiers. He can stay on the discussion board.
So, Macaco Fino is on the porch chatting with the two painters who had just finished some work at his house (and you've got to give Macaco credit, not just everyone would have hired these guys to come to their home so soon after being parolled). "I noticed the equipment in your garage, do you practice martial arts?" one of the painters innocently asks. "Yes, I am the famous Macaco Fino EVERYBODY in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu world knows me." replied Macaco (or something to that effect). One of the badass painters foolishly decided he wanted to "spar" with Macaco, right then and there.
Macaco, being in absolute control of his emotions, and devoid of ego, as all martial arts masters are, after a moments reflection on the potentially volatile nature of the request, responded with "YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME? COME ON, I'LL KICK YOUR ASS RIGHT NOW!"
The painters, obviously misinterpreting Macaco's intentions as an invitation to fight, nervously backed down and fled the scene.
Hopscotch is Wednesday and Friday nights.

What kind of power-training exercises do you teach in your Hop Scotch classes? Do you guys use the mudwalking step or the chicken step?

So, Tim, in your story, who had just been paroled, Macaco or the painters?

>Hopscotch is Wednesday and Friday nights.

What??? I thought we were doing xing yi all this time! :-) I suppose Ba Gua is really ring around the roses and those striking combinations come from hand ball.

Meynardo, here's an odd fact for ya.

Ring Around the Rosie, that cute little kids song, is a left over from the days of the Black Plague.

"Ring around the rosie"
(the sores were red marks with a circle around them).

"Pocket full of posies"
(the living kept posies (flowers) in their pockets to cover their noses as they walked through the streets that reeked of rotting bodies)

"Ashes, Ashes, when we all fall down"
(they'd pile up the bodies and burn them).

kind of disturbing when you think about it.

Great... :-)I think Tim mentioned this before. Only Tim would know about odd facts like that. The guy is a living martial arts and odd facts encyclopedia.

Speaking of street fights...

Never pull your car over when somebody picks a fight with you over a minor traffic incident, especially if the back window of their car is tinted. I did this once and 3 guys came out of the back passenger seats. I was outnumbered 5 to 1. I told myself to show no fear, but in reality I was thinking "now you did it...you're going to get your ass kicked in the middle of China Town".
The guys parked right behind my car. So, I got out put on my best mad dog face and started acting like I was crazy and started yelling at them (I do this naturally anyway just ask Tim.) Finally I said the F word and added "I'm done talking do you want to fight or bitch." Of course he wanted to fight...I was kind of hoping he'd say no. His buddies were there to back him up. So, I walked towards the car the driver's friends start to walk around the car from the passenger side being led by one of the friend who was riding shotgun. My girlfriend was watching all of this take place. Oddly enough she was perfectly calm.

I reach the front of their car and I stop. I thought that they might surround me and hit me from the blind side. I then turn to the guy who was leading the rest of gang and say (with finger pointing)... "this is between me and your buddy...you take one more step and it will be between you and me first and I will not hesitate to break you f...ing neck." That stopped him dead in his tracks and I immediately turned towards the driver rushed forward and said "now it's between you and me m...f...er, you still want to fight". The driver looks at his buddies. They weren't going to do anything. The driver wisely or unwisely made sure that his car door was between us. (I planned to kick his car door the moment he made a move.) All of the sudden he wasn't so tough. He started back peddling...he didn't want to fight anymore. What a relief in my part. The issue was close. He was psychologically defeated. I turned around and walked to my car. The driver called his friends and left.

my strategy involves decisions I made up quickly in my head the moment I stepped out of the car.

1. the first strike doesn't have to be physical...beat their will first.
2. go on the offensive, don't let them have any momentum. make them defensive. make them feel like you are overwhelming.
3. attack the head/center (the leader) and incapacitate the muscle (in this case the guy riding shotgun.)
4. accept the fact that you're going to get hurt.
5. leave your opponent a way out of the conflict.

I believe that fights are already won even before any sort of contact is made. I figured that one of the key is to defeat their mind, will, or intent. Just look at Macaco Fino's example with the painters. Defeat the mind first.

Is Hopscotch still on Wednesday and Friday nights.
I thought it was only Friday nights, because not enought kids come out and play on Wedesday.

Ditto's on 'not pulling over'. A couple of months ago I was on the 101 S (driving in the 'travel through' lane). There wasn't much traffic, I was doing about 60 when a black Ford Expedition raced up on my bumper and began flashing their lights for me to move over into the slow lane to let them pass.

There was a car in the slow lane next to me- and no cars near by in the lanes to my left, so I knew the idiot could pass on the left. But he got closer and continued to flash his lights. When I saw the driver laughing I turned on my lights to give him the impression I'd pressed my brakes... he slowed down rapidly and became completely unglued.

The driver decided he could pass on the left-
came up beside my car with the passenger screaming and spitting at me (which cracked me up cause when you try spitting out of a window at 60 miles an hour you get a face full of your own spit). The passenger and driver where yelling for me to pull over. I smiled and held up the peace sign. This show of relaxed peace seemed to really upset them. They pulled in front of me and slammed on brakes... luckily I'm a damn good driver and was expecting it. Frustrated, they pulled into the slow lane beside me and began throwing things at my car. A third, larger fellow in the back seat was hanging out the window yelling. The initial stupidity seemed somewhat normal.. but by now we'd traveled a couple of miles and these freaks who were in such a hurry they needed to ride my bumper were now taking extreme measures to slow me down and get me to pull over... I was beginning to get a little freaked out.

They were 20ish athletic looking white guys (it was like being threatened by the members of Limp Bizkit). I jotted down the license plate number and a quick description and made sure they could see what I was doing.

After that they sped off- I exited and reported the incident to the police. (according
to police's computer the license number was from a Honda Accord registered in San Diego.. but I am possitive that was the license on the truck)

A few days later a man was reportedly accosted in traffic on the 101S in the same area, he did pull over after the occupants threw objects at his car, stepped out... and 4 white youths in a black Ford SUV ran over and killed him.

After hearing about that I contacted North Hollywood's homicide division and re-reported the matter. I never heard anything else about it. But I have a strong feeling those were the same guys that killed a father of 2.

gosh, I've gotta wean myself off of this discussion board stuff. I'm far too narcissistic for this... it's like a drug.. well, not quite. I doubt I'll wake up in a pool of my own vomit after posting all night.

Later all.

Sum Dude, Son of Nut, Man of Many-

When ya'll and Tom stop pretending to be seperate individuals- (asking then answering your own guestions is down right weird, man)- It would be great if you could list a fight you've been in. After all, YOU suggested this thread... and at least four other folks have specificly asked you for your fighting experience. Its seems time is right for you to include yourself in the discussion.

P.S.- fighting your way out of a wet paper bag doesn't count.

>(asking then answering your own guestions is down right weird, man)-<

Hmmm . . . not sure what you're getting at . . . but what's the difference between that and Macaco throwing out those softball questions for Tim to answer? It's surely not just to make Tim out to be more than the almighty martial arts god you Shen Wu boys want him to be. For his part, Tim always provides direct to-the-point answers to Macaco's queries. Tim's good. He can show it. Wish you could do the same.

"what's the difference between that and Macaco throwing out those softball questions for Tim to answer?"

Simple: Tim and Macaco are not the same person. You, however, post questions as one person- turn around and post an answer to your own query pretending to be another person and then respond as third person complementing yourself... all in a futile attempt to make yourself seem interesting. Yet you lack the ability hide your overwhelming annoyability regardless of the moniker you hide behind.

It's sad.

I'm done with you though. From now on I'm going to use the discussion board for it original purpose. Asking actual questions and getting Tim's actual answers. (Which is what Macaco does).

You still have not given a single instance in which your martial training as served it purpose. Which smacks of having none.

another day another name,

Why don't you post using your real name instead of hiding behind these bogus nicknames. It seems to me that you have the mark of a COWARD. Quit hiding behind names. I surely don't appreciate the tone of your post. If you have a problem with us "Shen Wu Boys" why don't come out of the closet instead of being an internet smart ass.

I have to agree with Meynard! You can tell who the people with no fear are by the fact they post their real names, or at least their e-mail. Neither Tim nor his students make him out to be more than he is. One damn good fighter, a great friend, and one of the most knowledgable martial artists around! There's no pretending involved. He is also humble about it. I don't practice the Shen Wu system, but I respect it and anyone who does. It's real fighting, not pretend stuff like you see in so many schools today.

Bob, I wholeheartedly agree with Meynard on that point,too. I posted a remark to the same effect over on another thread (Concepts/Under Pressure)that I guess was in hindsight pretty condescending, which irritated some people (particularly Jim/Fred/Rupert/Interested&Humbled, none of which apparently are his real name). That post sparked a lot of vitriolic responses. I assume everyone here has better things to do with their time than continue to pile up that kind of crap, so I won't pour any more fuel on that fire.

Sum Guye, I'm glad you won't bother with me anymore. Maybe that will free up the board for nonslanderous, peaceable discussions. But I'll still be here, asking questions and contributing responses. If you think they are inane or verbose, it's your choice to ignore them, remain silent or continue the style of response you seem to enjoy.

As far as my own background and training in the fighting arts goes, SG, I already volunteered that over in the "Concepts/Under Pressure" thread. That included the incident in an industrial-area bar. Sneers and rants followed, including a statement to the effect that most people the writer knew, even in the martial arts world, didn't seek out fights in skanky bars. Well, I don't seek out fights in any venue, skanky or not. But situations developed that led to physical confrontation anyways. I never claimed that I was anything but unlucky and, probably, ignorant of pending hostility.

I've never claimed to have superior fighting skills or training than other people on this discussion board. I recognize that I can learn a lot, even from otherwise irritated and irrascible people. Meynardo's post on his driving adventure from 7-28-00 is a good illustration of that. It seems real enough to me. I'm glad he's still around after that happened.