Looking back in retrospect, maybe several of my inquiries were "softballish." I asked them for several reasons, not to insult anyone or make myself look good or specifically set Tim up. Personally, I've talked to Tim about these questions many times in the past and already knew his feelings. But, I chose to ask them in a public forum, specifically so he'd share his insights with people that don't get to talk to him often. This is the Shen Wu martial arts forum, Tim is the founder of Shen Wu, it's important to get his opinion on subjects as these.
Dialogue is a good thing. I think everyone can learn a lot from good interaction. Even if the impetus of the interaction was a rather soft question.

Let me state for the record that my name is Joe Bellone. I choose to use the name Macaco fino, because now all the BJJ guys call me that. Macaco fino, for better or worse, is now a nickname. I view it as a term of endearment. I don't hide behind it, but rather wear it as a badge of honor...If you don't like it, well, someday we'll roll and I'll squeeze your fuc&in' head. How's that...

I look forward to training with you all someday.

Macaco fino

Macaco, maybe I'm not intellectual enough to see the simplicity in the questions you've asked. I for one appreciate the fact that someone with understanding of the system/systems Tim teaches is asking specific questions. I enjoy the questions and responses. So what if it's softballish. As far as I can see Tim hits a homer every time! I believe he'd do the same in hardball!

Tom, I don't believe you are those other guys either. Maybe, I'm wrong but it seems to me you used your name even when things were getting pretty hot for you.

Personally I think it's whimsical to see a name related to the subject matter being posted or an amusing name. If the question or statement doesn't require much discourse I don't see a problem. This board was doing fine until Tom made everybody uptight and put a damper on the board .

It's all my fault (head hanging, tears filling my eyes). Sigh. Sob, even.

Oh, well. The beat goes on. I'm not making a big thing about folks posting under whimsical or assumed names anymore. I'm trying to go just on what they say in their posts. So, Meynardo, if using an assumed name for posting makes the poster a "coward" in your eyes, then that includes Sum Guye. I personally don't consider anyone here a coward, whether they use an assumed name or not. Taking his accounts of his real-life confrontations at face value (i.e., not laughing, sneering or doubting their veracity), SG obviously has great presence of mind in not reacting to the Limp Bizkit lookalikes trying to force him over on the freeway. That can't be an easy thing to do at freeway speeds.

I learned from that. I've unfortunately given in to fits of temper, using my horn, flipping people off, on more than one occasion in commuter traffic. Stupid, and lucky that the other drivers didn't do something more violent than to glare at me. These days you don't know who may be carrying a gun and willing to take a shot at you on the road, even with no provocation.

Tom,

The difference is that I know Sum Guye, Macaco Fino, and others who post on this board. I know that they post a nickname out a sense of humor not because they are hiding something. I certainly appreciate Macaco Fino's efforts in trying help us be more educated in the martial arts by asking questions that most of us don't even think about asking. And for the most part I often crack up reading some of the stuff that is on this board. Sysop basically knows who everybody is and so there's no point to hiding behind nicknames. It just gets you caught red handed looking like a big weenie. Like some posters...

I took it as personal offense when Mr. Another Day Another (whomever he/she is) start to insinuate certain things about us "Shen Wu Boys". I have a rather protective nature. Say what you want to say, we could all agree to disagree, but make sure you take responsibility for what you say by signing your name on the bottom. I too look forward to training with you all someday.

Meynard Ventura Ancheta

Ditto-

My real name is Roberto Numero Dos.

Sure Sysop Guy knows. It's also possible to find out from the other end. That's why this is all much ado about nada.

"Boys" is a term connoting a derogatory insinuation of immaturity. It can and should be considered disrespectful, unless used between friends. It has no place on a discussion board like this, unless used between friends. So you're right, Meynard, there is a difference, if you and Sum Guye and Macaco, etc. all know each other, train together or whatever.

The Neijia List registers its posters and boots people off that don't conform. If you all want to confine discussion to Shen Wu students and worshipful wannabes, then require registration. Otherwise, with a public posting area you're going to be open to crass and shameless beginners/losers/cowards like me.

You guys all seem pretty cool to me. Macaco's questions are obviously designed to elicit legitimate comment, and not necessarily just from Tim. I've got to think that Tim benefits from seeing what his students understand, whether on or off the mat. I sure do.

To Tom,

My feelings are, and I believe that I speak for most people who are posting here, that I would like this message board to stay open. The only thing I would ask from you is that you be real, and more considerate. You may not realize it, but your posts on this message board is very insulting, immature, and confrontational. I'm not going to give examples because many others have done so already. And if you choose to continue to be immature and insulting, hey its your right. And I'll be the first to argue against censorship of any kind or any other means of trying to keep you off this board.

This board allow anybody on the net to communicate and share ideas and information about martial arts. Not only that, its also a very friendly and fun place to do that. Lets all relax and enjoy each other company in the process of pursuing our common interest in martial arts.

If you don't mind me saying, Tom. Maybe you should think before you post.

This is a classic case of who gets the last word in.

We need to start a new subtopic heading to trash each other instead of destroying subtopic after subtopic.

Agreed.

Hey Tim,
I am VERY interested not only in hopscotch but the golden mousetrap palm as well but since I am stuck in Wichita, I was wandering if I could not talk you into a seminar???? maybe some videos????
All these stories frighten me, such violence, but I am ready to squish a few mighty mice. and I used to be block champion in hopscotch but I never went full contact...
So I could obviously use a few tips..
forever respectfully practicing,
Deadpool

Deadpool,
If you are interested in a seminar, let me know (but I'll tell you up front, the Golden Mouse Trap Palm is a closely guarded secret). My videos are available thru Unique Publications (they publish Inside Kung Fu).

ROCK ON!!!!

Hey Tom, et al,
See (if you will) discussion on timing & sensitivity drills. The drill mentioned (5 Sep) will make you aware of something you already possess; and being aware of it you may then "listen" to it & respond to it appropriately. I had a quickly begun & quickly ended confrontation in downtown Los Angeles about a year & a half ago while walking on a sidewalk one Sunday morning (on my way to church even -- violence knows no time outs; once in early American history taking firearms to & from church was required by statute); my first warning was a feeling (the same feeling one experiences in the drill I described) -- a feeling of the attacker's intent to do harm (some would argue that my first warning should have been that I was in downtown LA!); next I saw the torso suddenly angle towards me as he was nearing the limits of my safe distance alongside & in front of me (that is, I was walking northbound & he was just outside of my safe-distance limit to the northwest -- my left front, more left than front, when he made his move); being pre-warned I was on my guard for such a move & I responded with a simple, day one (or day two) ba-gua drill that Tim had explained some combat use for & that I had practiced on-&-off for about two-&-a-half years: I simply raised my arm in a certain manner & the attacker "impaled" his striking hand on my elbow & quit hostility; I had continued my northbound progress but did a walking turn that I had learned & practiced (keeping watch on the guy who decided to move along as well; he muttered something; I then responded inappropriately -- as I should have just kept quite so as not to risk the legal situation of provoking further violence; I said, "If you feel like a frog, then leap!"; he kept walking southbound & I went around the block to the University Cathedral -- good message as always).
There's even more to this particular sensitivity (it's very deep), but this example is the type I believe you had in mind. {:o)

Hey Meynard, or should I write Sun Tsu?,
Good save on that car incident. I've had a couple: both prior to meeting Tim & other fine instructors. One ended well, one didn't.
The one that didn't end well happened when I was very tired (I had been moving furniture & household goods all day & evening; I was nearly asleep at the wheel -- my common sense was already asleep). Some guys in a truck were throwing chewing gum & who-knows-what at my car as I headed southbound down the 405 to my new place with a load of stuff. I don't recall all of the details, but I do remember that I ended up ahead of them when I decided to pull over onto the shoulder; the truck followed. I got out unarmed & walked towards the truck which was blinding me with its headlights. A shadowy figure got out of the truck; I STUPIDLY allowed him to enter past the limits of my safe distance when I just as STUPIDLY put out my upraised palm & demanded that he give me some ID; his response was a headbutt which broke my glasses & due to nose pressure caused my eyes to water; I think I took a step or two back as I tried to gain my senses; the guy didn't follow up -- rather he got back in the truck & the truck pulled out (he had been a passenger -- one of three guys in the truck). I learned several important lessons that night (I won't list 'em as they should be obvious -- if you're awake).
The one that went well involved a firearm: I had been working security at a toy store when the manager asked me to check out the liscense plate of a car in the parking lot that three "customers" had just entered. I got outside as they were pulling away. They must have noticed that I was getting their license plate number 'cause the car stopped & they all got out at once & came toward me -- & they didn't seem happy at all; so I pulled a pistol, barrel pointing at the closet one who was still coming forward at the insistance of his "friends." Luckily the guy in the lead thought better & stopped, then turned trying to convince his friends that it probably wasn't a toy -- A GOOD CALL! It was a firearm that I hadn't yet tested (a bad idea), & I was already well into squeezing the trigger when the guy finally got brains (had the firearm had more of a hair trigger, then he would never have had that chance -- at least not without bleeding first). A firearm had defended me against an impending attack by three young, healthy guys (& me at the time a disabled vet with very few hand-to-hand skills). I've had firearms pointed at me up close & VERY PERSONAL, & I've pointed firearms at others with intent to use same if the situation didn't change into what I considered a more favorable situation. Yet with adequate hand-to-hand martial-arts training (& time to let same "sink-in") I've not felt the need to go to the pistol, shotgun, carbine, or rifle quite so quickly -- martial-arts training can make one more merciful (by adding a versatility in responses -- an appropriate response for each situation, based on PRINCIPLES, not on trying to pre-plan every possible scenario). {:o)

Hey Tom,
Read the Shen Wu discussion board on Mind/Body Connection -- you'll see how simple misunderstandings & taking things the wrong way can escalate to "fighting words." {:o)

Hi guys,
I'd like to add a couple of humbling experiences from living here in ever-peaceful Bangkok. If you've never been here imagine a road one block long filled with cheap guest houses (small no frills hotels), bars and beer stands everywhere and Thais and seasoned world travelers representing EVERY walk of life partying EVERY SINGLE NIGHT - non stop Mardi Grasish. I own a bar here and think I have seen just about everything, including murder in front of everyone right in the street (if you were here August 23, 2000 you may remember - butcher's cleavers).
Sitting in a quaint pub with some pretty cool guys and some pretty rough looking guys playing pool. A guy walks in with his girlfriend and accidently knocks over guy A's beer (he's playing pool). Guy B say's 'oi mate, no worries. got another comin' to ya' and with that proceeds to order another beer for guy A. Guy A picks up his tipped-over, slightly full beer bottle and walks over to the guy as cool as could be. Guy B turns around with the new beer and smiles. Guy A smiles back then grabs guy B by the back of the head and smashes the beer bottle into B's face. He falls and guy A and his friends kick him a few times just for good measure then head out. The owner of the bar (The Hole in the Wall, you pobably know it if you've ever been to Khao San Rd.) is a pretty tough Thai cop. He tries to stop the guys at the door. Guy A, without missing a beat, grabs the guys face and slams his head into the doorjam. They walked on looking no more stressed than if they just tied their shoes.
Another time I saw guy A (skinny little wanker)set his beer down and guy B (strong athletic looking type) facing the other way reached for his beer but accidentally picked up guy A's beer instead. An honest mistake. No time for apologies. Little scrawny Guy A grabs B by the head and bites off a chunk of his cheek while he's still in his chair. Guy B tries to flee but as he stands up A's friend slams a solid one right into B's nose. Looked like it exploded, blood everywhere, people screaming and trying to leave while A and his friend are kicking away. They left laughing. B was no slouch. Looked pretty strong and willing to hold his own but there was no way, man! Absolutely no way.
The antagonists in the stories were mean and tough in my opinion, as well as complete f*#@ing idiots. The victims could have been trained martial artists but we'll never know. Visions of Steven Segal danced through my head as, in each situation, I contemplated helping the victim out. I saw that they did absolutely nothing, not even a frown or raised voice, to deserve what they got. Now I've fought in the ring here in Thailand and learned some awesome stuff with Tim (Big Bald Betty, no offense J, is right Tim is the best instructor/martial artist I've ever seen on either continent.). I'm not intimidated easily and I'm not above getting into a scrap now and then. But I realized these guys refused to lose. They were willing to go farther than I was. I chose to stand down. I always thought that one of the major points of training in martial arts was to be able to protect yourself and others who are unable to do so for themselves. But in these situations I chose to protect myself realizing that I probably wouldn't be much help and stood a pretty good chance of getting an ass whoopin' myself.
"What are you doing in a place like that?" you might say, but not all places are like America where we have "good neighborhoods" and "the wrong side of the track" so to speak. There's a big mix in many places around the world and I don't feel like living my life categorizing which places are safe or not because violence is chaotic and can happen ANYWHERE just as you can meet some pretty good people anywhere.
Not all but most of the scraps I've seen here go down very much like this. Martial art training is gentlemanly. Most of us don't train when and where to bite someones cheek off or practice slamming a bottle into another's face. Some fighters are extremely skilled and, squared off, will kick ass. But guys like those above don't take much to go off and are very comfortable kicking the snot out of anyone regardless of size or reputation. I'm not arguing for or against either. They are both sides of the same coin. I love training in martial arts and having the confidence that I can hold my own in most scraps. What are your thoughts on "just plain tough vs. trained and skilled? What would you have done and have you ever been in a situation where you had to do it before? How do you prepare yourself for, not just the face to face sucker punch, but the real element of surprise?

This is a very good post. The situations Eric describes are good examples of the most dangerous types of attacks, those virtually without warning (at least from the victims point of view). Many (if not most) street confrontations start with some sort of verbal exchange that escalates into an attack. In situations like these, one has at least a little time to prepare for the physical part of the fight. Oftentimes the worst stompings come during attacks like those described above. The victims of the attacks Eric described may well have been tough guys and good fighters, but their lack of awareness precluded any type of efficient response.

The same is true for all of us. No matter how well trained one is, if attacked without warning by determined and mean-spirited aggressors, you don't have much of a chance. Here is my advice. At the risk of sounding paranoid, I suggest that any time you are in a potentially violent environment (i.e. in public, especially where there are groups of young men and/or alcohol involved), you NEVER let your guard down (you pay constant attention to your surroundings). If you see trouble brewing, you have the option to simply leave. If you choose to stay or have no choice, NEVER let anyone suspect get within your safe distance (close enough to strike or otherwise attack you without having to take at least a full step or preferably two). Violent predators will almost never be alone. It is also important to remember that if you are resonably well adjusted, and this is reflected in your choice of friends, if attacked, your friends will most likely hesitate to come to your aid while the predator's friends will jump into the fight immediately, as if someone had yelled "go."

Although it is not always possible to pick out potential violent offenders, one should be on guard around anyone you have bumped into, stared down, insulted or taken anything from (beer, seat, parking space, date...). If you can't de-escalate the situation (many predators will back down if they think you are aware of their intentions and are willing to fight back. But not always) or escape, you need to be prepared to attack and fight in the survival mode (where you don't care how much damage you have to do to your opponents, as long as you can escape).

A Comment on "just plain tough vs. trained and skilled".

Something I was taught as a youth is that martial art training isn't complete unless you are condition to use it. And use it effectively. Control comes 2nd.

Techniques are useless in a fight unless you used them. I learn martial arts at a very young age but got my ass whoop regularly as a youth. Reason why was that I was frighten to fight ... I was basically a softly.

It was because I got my ass kick so much that my father decided to make my training more complete. With out going in detail, he toughen me up.

We all learn cool techniques here and there. But how many of us are willing to use them when the time comes.

What I'm trying to say in response to Erik comment, "just plain tough vs. trained and skilled", is that you're not trained until you're tough.