Brian,
I'm a little confused. Before I do any of what?

Stc,

My copy of the book is a bit beat up too, but the print is fine (I had a photocopy of the text & some -- important -- pages somehow ended up missing; but as luck would have it, one of my buddies gave me their beat-up but very readable book as a gift recently, so I've got it all at my fingertips). I'll wait 'til tomorrow before I open discussion on some of the book's finer points (rather than hitting every fact, I'll just concentrate on the one's that interest me the most... this will save boardspace & it won't seem like a chore to me). I'm curious to contrast Western Boxing with both Xing-Yi & Ba-Gua (& maybe even Tai-Ji & BJJ). And I'll do my best to help you out along the way. I'll write a little at a time as I've got other things to do (including reading a long book by Peter Ralston). I'll "yak" with you tomorrow [in the meantime why don't you tell me the area(s) where your text got corrupted... and don't you just hate it when that happens? I know I do].

Tim,
I maybe confused, I thought there was a suggestion to put Jack Dempsey's boxing book on this site after someone had scanned or typed it in. That was what I was saying you should check with your attorney about first before you or your SysOp did it.

take care,
Brian

Brian Kennedy,

You're right in that there was such a suggestion at one point -- but due to help from others on the board we were (I was) able to reasonably figure out that the book wasn't yet in "public domain," so we'll (I'll) just discuss some of the topics covered in the book much like we've always done (you know: lots of discussion with a few cited quotes here & there).

All of this is my fault, as I posted as "fact" something that wasn't fact at all (something a buddy of mine told me was a fact -- doing so before I checked it out); luckily some other board members questioned this so-called "fact," checked a few things out, & contributed information which led me to appologize for my error & begin to consider other options. Our intent was to re-print in its entirety ONLY if it were "public domain;" once we figured that it was still most likely under copyright I began playing with the idea of extracting as much as legally possible from the book (since it's an excellent book that has been out of print for quite some time now... I haven't seen new copies for sale since around 1995). Sometimes I like to explore the fine line which separates permissible from unacceptable (as I slide down the razorblade of life).

Once again I'm sorry for any confusion I caused & I'm grateful for the responses which helped to educate me more on the matter. I'll both keep within the intent of the law & exercise free speech. I see no problems now that my original misconception has been dealt with & I've been reminded of what copyright protection is for (& not for).

I'll post a related topic later today.

OK... it's later...

I'll begin my discussion of Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching & Aggres[s]ive Defense" book by stating its main premise (purpose), explaining the premise's two-part nature, & then giving my understanding of the initial concept. The second part of the main concept requires practice using a heavy bag to fully benefit; [since I've just recently aquired a heavy bag (& haven't yet found a place to hang it) I'm not familiar enough to discuss this second part (a most important part) in great detail -- yet]. There's also a secondary premise that I'll briefly mention in this posting.

Mr. Jack Dempsy (once a "World Heavyweight Champion" boxer) wrote -- in essence -- that striking skills should be developed prior to defensive skills [(such as evasion)] -- because it's paramount to develop good punches [it's also good for the purpose of developing a proper, aggressive mindset (as fights are usually won by attacking or counter-attacking; merely dodging an attack rarely discourages an opponent from trying another attack; so one must usually exercise some aggression in order to stop aggression). And learning how to punch well, to pack a wallop, is good for (realistic) self-confidence, which is a necessary (prerequisite) ingredient for effective aggression]. Dempsy reminds the reader of his book that (Western) Boxing's original intent was to teach one "to defend himself with his fists...not [for focusing on]...competition with boxing gloves" where "points" awarded can make a non-fighter a 'victor.' [The point I see him trying to make is not to practice without gloves, but rather to practice truly stunning blows (with & without gloves) instead of point-scoring love-taps that wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell at stopping a street thug from pressing his attack].

[Note that karateka George Dillman has been trying to do much the same for Karate as Jack Dempsey was trying to do for boxing -- he's been focusing on KO's. Both arts have fallen into becoming tapping/point competitions instead of hard-core systems of power striking for defense. Both arts still have their powerful strikers, but they're now the exception as most who get instruction in these arts never develop powerful striking ability (& this really holds true nowadays for the average Karate student).]

So, Dempsey's main premise is this: "Exploding body-weight is the most important weapon in fist fighting..." [He's not talking suicide bombers here. It's actually a two-part premise...]

The first part is to set one's own body-weight "into fast motion;" the second part follows the first when one "relays" his moving body-weight (using good body-alignment) to "explode" into an opponent "with a stunning, blasting effect known as follow-through."

Mr. Dempsey explains that this second part requires a heavy target for practice in order to "accustom your fists, wrists and arms to withstand considerable punching shock." [Remember that for every action there's an equal-but-opposite reaction (personally I have yet to develop any appreciable wrist strength, so I currently prefer to use palm strikes -- so I just modify what Dempsey calls "the Power Line" to end at my wrist/palm-heel)]. When using a fist, one brings one's body-weight in behind one's knuckle (that is, the knuckle that's between the "pinky" knuckle & the middle knuckle -- the one Dempsey calls the "second" knuckle). Dempsey explains that our true "Power Line" (when hand is fisted) actually ends in the "pinky"-finger knuckle, but since that knuckle is too easily broken, the "Power Line" is adjusted to the "second" knuckle [note that in Karate practice the power line would be adjusted to the middle & fore-knuckles (I've seen this illustrated with a straight wrist & also with a cocked wrist in various Karate books; if & when I use a fist I prefer using a straight wrist for uprooting strikes & a cocked wrist for straight or downward strikes)]. Dempsy still keeps his wrist fairly straight this way while helping to avoid a broken "pinky." He folds his thumb so that the thumb lies across the middle finger & the thumb's tip lies halfway across the "second" finger [note that in Karate & Tai-Jutsu the thumb lies across the fore & middle fingers, with a couple of specialized exceptions which I prefer because I don't have any "kayo" fist-knuckle punches to throw... because of that weak-wrist thing].

Here's my present understanding of the first part: "...body-weight is set into fast motion":

[It seems that the process of setting one's body-weight "into fast motion" is akin to the Xing-Yi Smashing Fist concept of "avalanche."]
Dempsey uses a chart/illustration in which he compares the process to someone sledding downhill, [so whether a sled or some loose snow, a downhill concept is present within both analogies. When on goes down a hill (as opposed to off a sheer cliff), one is moving both down & forward relative to the hill's slope -- at the speed of gravity (minus any resistance of course). Speed-of-gravity I'm told (by Tim) is a desirable thing to use in stand-up hand-to-hand fighting]. With what Dempsey calls "the Falling Step," one can convert one's falling body-weight -- falling at roughly the speed of gravity -- into forward momentum (momentum towards your target: your opponent, [or if choosing to escape, then your target would be some point away from your opponent]). [Note: all steps are falling steps -- but resistance & direction can vary]. Get up & assume a stance in which one foot is in lead of the other & with the lead foot bearing most of the weight [(50/50 weight distribution will work, but it's slower... & the object is to move fast)]. Keep your rearmost leg slightly bent for springiness & then just step forward with your lead foot [(that's right)] -- your rear foot will follow up in tow after the step is completed. Basically what happens is that when your forward foot lifts off from the ground you begin to fall & your rear foot (unable to support your mass) helps to propel your body-weight forward, so that you're falling forward like an avalanche. [It's that simple].

As I see it, Dempsy's second premise within the book (not to be confused with the second part of the first premise) is to teach defense & other skills useful in offense. A good, solid "kayo"/"dynamite" punch ranks supreme for both offense & defense, but some other aspects such as bobbing & weaving, back-fist ward-off, & feinting are also covered to help make the readers of his book into "well-rounded fighters."

Helpful suggestions & comments would be, uh, helpful.

Brian,
Oh! Heaven forbid. Those guys were just yakking.

I became interested in Dempsey when I saw a a famed german wing chun teacher (I won't mention his name at this stage), 50 yrs.old, easily toying a pro boxer half his age, dealing with him through punches alone. That time the german stated that 'old' boxers knew how to punch (vertical punch & power line+ falling step) but that knowledge had been lost with the sport age of boxing, and quoted Dempsey words. Therefore I managed to see the video of the celebrated (but little known..) Dempsey/Willard historical match. If someone of you still hasn't seen that film, I strongly suggest to do it. After the day of that challenge I have sought "Championship fighting" long time, but I was unable to find it.

Hey Mike

Thanks for the effort ...keep up the good work

stc

Bob #2, it would appear that 1FWIW is the equivalent of 1/5 of the pre-internet 'buddy can you spare a dime', which on face value parity makes it about the same as 'just my two cents worth'.

I would however remind people, that in real terms and in order to enable real world comparisons between different posters, some allowances should be made for inflated self-opinions.

Take Mike for example, who according to Meynard has been under some major hyper-inflationary pressures in the past and also seems to like to run boom or bust cycles. It could however just be a case of Mike hyperventilating.

Yeah Chris,

I get excited at times & go all out 'til I'm sucking air / worn out. What's a "hyper-inflationary pressure?" Do dat mean full o' hot air?

I do go (semi-)boom & (semi-)bust for a variety of reasons.

I don't hold an inflated opinion* of my skills, or lack thereof... so,

Anybody,

Do you have a way to strengthen wrist joints (other than those listed below)? I've tried the following to no avail:

reverse curls
wrist rollers
knuckle push-ups
ball squeezing (get your mind out of the gutter)
"Dyna-Bee" gyroscopic wrist-rotation exercise

My wrists still buckle easily when I strike a heavy (usually moving) object. Any suggestions?

* = you've probably noticed that I'm full of opinions though (& sometimes my opinions suck & I revise those that suck when & if I realize they suck).

It's just that Mike's opinion is not based on experience...imagine Kramer in the episode where he does karate with children.

Mike,
Have you tried simple isometric exercises for the wrist? If not, you might try the following:

Make a fist with your right hand and hold it in the neutral position (as if you were going to throw a punch). Turn the palm side upward. With the palm of the left hand, push down against the four fingers just below the bend in the knuckles as you resist the pressure with the right wrist (akin to doing a regular wrist curl, without motion). Repeat pushing on the back of the fist. Then grab over the top of your right fist with the left hand and try to twist the fist in one direction, and then the other.

Do each exercise once with maximum force for about 6 or 8 seconds. Do the exercises once a day (the whole routine for both wrists will take less than a couple minutes).

You can also work on tendon strength by hanging from a bar for time.

Tim,

Thanks! I never tried that isometric approach('til now). I can feel it deep. Me thinks that's the ticket. Should I only do the isometric exercise palm-up (or should I vary it -- does it matter at all once it has been strengthened from this position)? As for hanging from a bar, I'm STILL trying to get the landlord to let me put in a doorway bar (I ask every year; I can't afford a self-standing one -- unless I find enough raw materials to make one). Later.

Meynard,

Kramer's my hero; but I missed that episode... darn it. Sounds like I'd enjoy it.

You're right about lack of experience. I hope I made that clear in my posting. Now that I have a heavy bag (be it a small one), and a new way (or two) to strengthen my wrists, perhaps by next year sometime I'll have some of my own western-boxing-training experience to write about.

And, yeah, I gotta work on this hyperventilating/hyper-diaper writing style of mine.

You have Dempsey's book. When you extract my rambling found in [], do you think I gave the subject adequate treatment? What would you add (if anything)? Later.

Mike, I can't get pass the picture of the baby falling on top of the man's head. Besides, I go blind reading your post. It's just to damn long.

BTW, how could you call it a heavy bag if it's a small one? Why don't you just say, I have a small punching bag? I've seen you throw a punch. The problem is you try to punch like a friggin ninja.

Meynard,

I called it a heavy bag 'cause I didn't know better to call it a punching bag (that may be another reason why Phil told me to leave his martial-arts supplies store, eh?). Thanks for the correction (it's built like those slender Muay Thai bags, but about only a third of the length... I don't know if it would go by any other name as well).

I've tried to punch the Tai-Jutsu way (aka "like a friggin ninja" because it is my chosen art; but I'm willing to give other methods a try. Do you think it will be a waste of effort to practice the Jack Dempsey way on a small punching bag before I get my wrists strengthened somewhat & can afford to purchase or make a real heavy bag?

I'll try to remember to shorten my posts (I keep forgetting).

Mike,
Do the isometrics pushing with the palm upward (like a regular wrist curl), pushing with the back of the hand upward (like a reverse wrist curl) and twisting the fist in each direction.

One rep of each for 6 to 8 seconds, once a day.

Mike,

You've taken private lesson in Xing Yi. You've read Dempsey's book. Why stick to the tai jitsu way of punching?

I think it's a waste of effort to practice the tai jitsu way. With you weight and reach you could be throwing knock out jolts punching Dempsey's way.

Meynard,

My weak wrists have been a problem for me ever since I fought as a kid. I'd throw fisted body punches & twist my wrist. And as an adult I'd end up doing the same on heavy bags; so I'm hesitant to practice throwing jolting fisted blows the Xing-Yi & Dempsey way. When a wrist buckles I usually can't punch with that hand again for quite some time.

Tim & a buddy named Kevin have recently given me some exercises which may stabilize my wrists (others I've tried haven't). If they work as I hope, then I'll no longer hesitate to practice & use those jolting Xing-Yi & Dempsey-style punches. Later.

Tim,

Kevin doesn't know how long it will take for me to strengthen my wrists using his Chinese tendon-changing methods daily. Do you have any idea how long it will take for my wrists to get strong enough to do heavy-bag work using your isometric exercises daily?

This morning I ate three times the amount of protein that I had been eating & I now feel a bit better. Thanks for the suggestion. Later.

hi, Mike..i don't usually give out exercises, as i'm not an authority, but there is an exercise i used in highschool: get a length of broom handle, and tie a 10 lb weight on it with a length of rope. hold the apparatus out in front of you and wind the weight up/down by gripping and twisting the broom handle. you can work both up and down sides of the wrist. it'll build up your forearm/wrists pretty quickly, assuming one doesn't have any serious problems with the wrists. don't mean to intrude (and i don't mean this to supplant anything Tim's said), but i found it helpful. (greatly improved my arm wrestling in highschool, which of course every teenage boy is concerned about!) the only other thing i'd volunteer (being unasked) is that IMO alignment includes the wrist, so if the wrist isn't properly aligned so the wave can go through it (whatever kind of punch), it's like any other part of the power chain, it'll stress/buckle. anyway, as i said, i don't mean to intrude in anyway (and i may well not be saying anything you don't already know), but your post reminded me of that old exercise. best...

The wrist rolling exercise can give you elbow tendonitis if you over do it. Short stick and staff training exercises are good for strength and flexibility. And if you can measure up .... there's always long pole training. No inflated claims here.