Dear Tim,

The recent tragedies in our country has made me feel helpless against a very dangerous enemy. However, a small group of men seemingly overpowered a team of trained hijackers armed with knives and other bladed weapons. Their bravery is really inspiring. We will probably never face such a situation, but facing someone with a knife (or perhaps multiple people) is a possibility. Yes, I know the best defense would be to run, but this is not always feasible. What training advice and tactics would you recommend against opponents armed with blades?

I'd like to add this to the question:

... in restricted spaces.

Best regards,

Rick Matz

Thankfully, I have never been in a knife fight. Therefore, my advice is purely theoretical, based on training (some of it with men who have been in knife fights) and sparring with simulated weapons.

First off, the general concensus is you will be cut, it is a certainty against someone intent on slashing or stabbing you. Despite what many people believe, according to statistics, the vast majority of people who are attacked with a bladed weapon survive the attack; the smaller the blade, the greater the chance of survival. Having said that, no bladed weapon should be underestimated (the most commonly used edged weapon in real attacks is a screwdriver).

Despite all the elaborate "trapping" and "disarming" techniques we often see in books and magazines, the people who have actual experience of being attacked with a knife while unarmed most often recommend simply trying to grab the attacker's knife wrist with both hands, and keeping hold as you attempt to move to a superior position, apply simple leverage (usually to the elbow) or headbutt, kick or smash the attacker into something (use of the environment). It is not possible to control the blade by holding onto the attackers wrist or hand with only one hand.

When someone slashes or stabs, we all instinctivly put up our hands to defend. It is important to train youselves not to reach too far out, and to always keep the BACKS of the forearms toward the attacker (veins run along the outside of the arms, arteries on the inside, think about where people cut their wrists, this is where you do not want to be cut).

One of my first teachers believed that since you were going to be cut anyway, it was foolish to wait for the attacker to move first. He recommended being proactive, attacking first, causing the opponent with the knife to be reactive, this way you have more 'choice' where you will be cut and may have a better chance of controlling/hurting your opponent. If you can get the attacker off his guard by pleading, feigning compliance etc. before you attack, all the better. Something at least to consider.

As in most cases, your mindset is most important, but unlike weaponless sparring where you can learn to deal with realistic contact in realistic situations, this is impossible with real knives. I would recommend not looking down if you feel you have been cut.

Finally, it is important to 'spar' with simulated weapons (rubber knives, dull weapons with chalked edges, so you can see where you have been 'cut'), so you can develop the timing and reflexes needed to help deal with a real attack. Obviously, running away is the only sensible reponse to the threat of a knife attack, if this isn't an option, try to find anything you can use as a weapon. I think you have to mentally prepare yourself as much as possible to being cut, and you have to be willing to inflict as much damage to your attacker as you are capable.

While I agree with most of Tim's statement I'm not sure of the one hand defense being impossible. I can't do it but there are folks out there who can. I recommend to anyone on the list to go see one of the deThouars brothers (which at this point seems to mean Pak Willem, Pak Victor (my teacher), or Pak Maurice. Pentjak Silat along with Kali is designed specifically with the blade in mind. Also I think Tim's advice about acting first (even if it is only to cause a reaction) to be the case in most situations if you have the luxury of having the time. If the attack is not a sucker punch then to me it's best to get the upper hand right away. Hey I didn't ask for some ••••••• to start trouble so I have to assume he has evil intent.
Buddy

Scott W

1. Knowledge of knife/weapon attacks and capabilities.

2. Mobility and explosive movements.

3. Proper mindset.

4. Awareness

One day when my son was around 10, I had him attack me with a plastic knife. Only 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times could I successfully defend and counter without getting any type of 'cut'. Then I told him about a concept in knife fighting and gave him a couple examples. The rest of that session, he 'cut' me every time.

Many weapon 'defenses' are based on the idea that the attacker is an idiot. Suggest you build up your library and look at the different opinions of what 'should' or should not be done. (Even an idiot can hurt you very badly while just flailing around)

Tim didn't say it was impossible, but I think all of us can probably master a two-hand grab stabilization move. Who wants to waste their time learning martial arts based on knife fighting? The chances of just getting into a fistfight are slim for most of us. Yet we practice martial arts to defend against unarmed men. I've had more surgeries, etc. because of injuries that were self-inflicted or from my partners during normal practice than for the few fights over my lifetime. I say stick with practical advice.

An interesting footnote:
The L.A. Times quoted the head of the Israeli S.F. that replacing metal dinner knives with plastic in first class is more psychological. He went on to say that you can easily slit a persons throat with a plastic credit card.

I think all of the advice was pretty good. Superior mindset is the most important thing when all is said and done. The brave men that thwarted the hijackers on one of the jets proved that.

Technically, it seems that feinting a little with a hand and then kicking the knee joint of the knife-wielder seems like an intelligent prelude to grabbing the wrist of the knife hand with both of your hands. Perhaps the Hsing Yi Dragon form might also be good, kicking the person back and grabbing the knife wrist. Any thoughts?

Abula,
Actually if you read Tim's post he did say it was impossible. A lot of you guys are in California, check out Pak Victor in Bellflower. The time when you need that knife defense is when you wish you had trained it. Four Crips (or box cutter weilding hijackers) getting ready to jump you and you're thinking of taking to the ground?
Buddy

The guys in the plane, according to their phone conversations, had some time to plan. If you do, wrap your shirt around your arm or use a jacket if possible. Remember that most people who use a knife, screwdriver, etc. are probably doing so out of insecurity or are not usually a well-trained fighter. The weapon might be scary but remember you are fighting the man not the weapon. If you are talking about someone trained to fight with a knife, my opinion is you're in big trouble.

Most of the real-life scenarios I've seen happen when someone gets intimidated, scared or pissed off and runs to go get a knife with the intention of intimidation. Many stabbings are accidental as a result of a domestic dispute. I've also seen many times where a fight starts, others join and then someone runs and gets a knife.

Last February I walked down the wrong street here in Bangkok and had 3 guys stop me on a little soi (alley or lane). They looked wasted and one of them had a pretty big knife pointed right at me about chest high. Another snatched a gold chain and pendant worth a lot of $$$ from my neck and put it in his mouth. I just reached out grabbing the knife-guy's hand (not wrist but I wasn't thinking clearly) with both of mine and just sort-of pulled the knife right out of his hand. I didn't plan on it, almost don't remember doing it and was just about as surprised as he was. I didn't think of any of the advice I just gave, or read for that matter. In fact I didn't really think about anything. For a fraction of a second I had visions of going all "Steven Segal" on these guys and cutting them all up, so I did what came naturally - I ran my ass off as fast as my legs would take me. I took the knife to the Soisuanplu Police Station, looked through some photo albums of the local bad boys and drank coffe for a few hours while the police went after them. They sold the necklace for heroin before the police caught them. Two hours after the incident the police dragged them in (one was pretty beat up by the police officer - officially he 'fell down') completely wasted on heroin and now they are each serving a 5 year sentence for "snatching jewellry". Never saw the necklace again.

First thought I had was to feint a hand strike while moving into a position to kick the groin.
Sacraficing the back of the arm is worth it if your pretty sure you can pull off the kick.

Distraction can be provided by throwing coins or keys or something into the attackers face, which may give time to control or strike them.

The most important thing, I think, Is to control the mind of the attacker(if only for a split second) to give yourself an opportunity to get in.

Anyway those are my first thoughts!

Buddy;
I did a word search and this statement is the only one containing the word impossible:

As in most cases, your mindset is most important, but unlike weaponless sparring where you can learn to deal with realistic contact in realistic situations, this is impossible with real knives. I would recommend not looking down if you feel you have been cut.

P.S.
I don't hang out in Watts where the Crips are. Thats part of being aware of the environment.

If you're going to face off with a person with a knife the best option is to get a bigger knife (a la Crocodile Dundee) or a longer reaching weapon like a staff or stick. If they're trained with a knife you better have a gun, preferably .45 caliber, and not let them get close. One of the best of options is to just simply use Nike-Jitsu and run. The problem with that option is that if they're crazy enough they'll just chase you down and you'll just die tired.

From what I learned from my last vacation in the Philippines, people who really want to stab you don't show you the knife. I've had several nights of discussions and practice with my cousins(real crazy scrappers who have seen and participated in their share of knife fights) regarding issues of self-defense and especially knife defenses. It was very illuminating. This is what I learned from them. When people stab you they will use some gross motor action like an over hand right. It looks just a chop to the left side of your neck. Some are going to come at you slashing and some going to stab straight down. That's why in Filipino MA they call it angle #1 and #2 (a downward cross slash to the right side of your neck). Three other ways that you will get stab or slashed is with a simple straight stab, angle #5, to the torso and upward hooking slashing or stabbing to your sides, angle #3 and upward cross slash, angle #4 in FMA. In FMA this is called Cinco Terros, or basic 5 strikes.

With these strikes in mind, the option that I will use if I don't have a weapon is what my cousins call the shirt option. Yes shirt, as in your t-shirt or any decent sized piece of cloth such as those brown blankets (fold them so that they're just big enough to cover your torso) they give in the airplane. Hold them at one of the corners and make a fist, twisting inwards. You need to keep the inside of your forearms facing inwards, in case you get cut. The cloth should drape down in front of you about a foot away from your body. Stand in a natural stance. If you took the cloth out of your hands you should look like one of those old style bare knuckle fighters the way your hands are positioned. The idea is that you will use the cloth to catch any incoming slash or stab (now you have cloth plane to defend yourself with, like a shield), wrap the weapon and the weapon hand, and then control the weapon arm. When you wrap the weapon and weapon hand it prevents the attacker from switching the knife to his other hand. You want the blade and the hand to be wrapped up in the cloth. If they stab at you let them stab through the cloth (it's only a shirt) and then wrap it up. You want to move to the outside of the attacker's weapon arm when or during the time you are trying to secure the weapon. Apply simple leverage.

In restricted spaces I think this method works well. The cloth draped in front of you makes it hard for an attacker to gauge the distance between the cloth and your torso. The attacker will want to remove the cloth and will start to attack your hands and arms. He will slash at the cloth. This a good time to wrap the cloth over the weapon and the weapon hand. It's also a good idea to use any available obstacle to you advantage.

Remember that you can still punch and elbow while holding the cloth between your hands. I tried this method sparring with my cousins and it seems to work well. we used ball point pens, the cap removed and plastic thrash bags as cloth.

This all theoretical since I haven't really used it against a live blade. If you want to try it do so at your own risk. Get some proper instructions and practice only while supervised by someone trained in this method.

The best advice my cousins gave is to simply be aware of your surroundings and prevent yourself from getting in a situation where you are in danger of being attacked with a knife.

Meynard;
Thanks for sharing that with us. What's with the wierd disclaimer, watching to many commercials or reality shows lately?

Abdula,
Just look above. Tim says "...it is not possible to control the blade by holding onto the attackers wrist or hand with only one hand". This is a pointless debate gone too long. It is possible and I'm sure an excellent practitioner of the Indonesian martial arts (like the ones I mentioned) could show you.
As far as location- you don't get to pick when the attacks come. Maybe your attacker is not wearing a blue do-rag but he will still mean you greivous harm. In Pentjak Silat Serak live blade training is often done, if only to get you used to the feeling.
Buddy

I'm glad this topic came up.

Only a few years ago I was forced by the State of California to "cease and desist all live blade training" after several student's physicians reported my training methods to authorities. Fortunately the only fatality that occurred was thrown out of court because I produced a 'loss of life/damage waiver' signed by the ex-student.

The US Courts have no sympathy for trying to teach our senior citizens to protect themselves against armed assailants bent on doing them serious harm. (Thank goodness they aren't adept at recognizing forgeries!)

I've got to go, I have a class to train,
Roberto Numero Dos, III

Hmmm
I assume you meant your post in jest Mr. Dos. I find it in extremely poor taste. Fatality? Forgery? You, sir, are either a blatent liar posing as a joker or an idiot, although I suspect both. Either way you clearly know nothing about knife training. I see you cannot discuss this as an adult and will have no dealings with you. Given the recent tragedy and the fact that it was enabled by knife wielding maniacs you comments are in my mind, criminal. But then it's easy to use such provocative language when writing behind a phoney name.
Buddy

What recent tragedy? What knife wielding maniacs??

If a blatant liar is posing as a joker or an idiot... wouldn't that mean his true identity is something other than a joker or an idiot? I'm having difficulty following your line of reasoning.

And if my language you find provocative, that's your own fetish to deal with, buddy.
(I'm not using your name there, I'm using a term of endearment akin to pal or chum.)

I believe we are seeing, when " attempts at comedy " are challenged, an almost complete and total cyber melt-down.

Hi Luke,
I'm not sure how to respond. Maybe the zen approach-no comedy no meltdown. Maybe the Daoist approach- the meltdown is the way. I don't see the joke. I have a fifteen year old daughter I have to explain this all to and I don't know how. I know as a martial artist somewhat trained in the use of bladed weapons how I may have responded. Maybe I'm too old (44) to be able to see the humor in any of this. I have enjoyed, however, Tim's input in this site. And my name, by the way bobby, is not only my real one, but not a synonym for pal or chum, which is bait here in New England. If you mean pal, say pal. Not Buddy. And you can say Mr. Tripp

I assume you also have a 747 pilots license. The guys on the Pennsylvania flight seemed to have overpowered the hijackers but didn't know how to fly the plane and therefore crashed in the field. I assume with your prowness that you would have disarmed all six before they killed the pilots.