Dear Tim,

Do you practice any form of meditation and/or attempt to incorporate this into you martial arts? Are you familiar with Kundalini yoga and have you ever practiced it? With the whole mind and body rhetoric that seems to permeate the martial arts, I was wondering whether or not formal meditation should be seriously considered in the world of combat or if it is simply a bunch of hogwash which detracts attention from the true nature of what it is we are trying to do: kick someone's ass. If you have any experience in meditation, please share your thoughts on this matter and elaborate.

Thank you, kind sir.
Boot

Dear Boot,

I'm one of those strange creatures that practice both meditation and martial arts. I don't exactly study kundalini yoga, but something similar involving energy circulations. (my Teacher studied with several kundalini, kriya and tantric Masters, then adapted the teachings to a western audience)

The question is, what are your priorities? Do you want to seek the Self or kick arse. If you just want to kick arse, then standing meditation should be enough for you. If you want to learn to meditate -and- practise martial art then maybe you can check out the likes of Bruce Kumar.

If you focus on martial training you are going to get martial results faster. If you practise meditation and martial arts you may not get the martial skills you are looking for at all.

One interesting side note. Every time I come back from a meditation intensive, my softness and my listening skills are much improved. But if I had of just focused on martial arts I'd be a far better fighter than I am today.

Dummy

I don't practice any formal type of meditation. I am familiar with Kundalini Yoga, I have never practiced it. I'd reckon that any type of training that helps to focus your intent and makes you more self aware should have positive effects on martial arts training. But, like Mr. Dummy says above, if you spend so much time on Yoga and meditation you begin to cut into your martial arts training time, the effort may be counterproductive.

Two real world examples: I doubt if many (if any) of the top NHB/MMA fighters of today spend much time meditating. Having said that, Rickson Gracie (one of the greatest real martial artists of our time) credits half of his success to his family's art, and half to the practice of Yoga.

Thank-you Tim and Dummy for your comments. I do believe in body-awareness and the ability to achieve this through meditation. In regards to "Chi"--bunch of bullshit, compliments of
Mr. Robert Smith's book 'Masters and Methods.' I do believe in the central nervous system's functioning and the body's ability to conduct electricity; this can be experienced as well as the circulation of blood in the body, if one relaxes and feels for it. None of that amply applies to what we are attempting to achieve through the practice of martial arts, which is to fight with a great degree of agility and skill level. Perhaps meditation fosters focus and would actually apply to all facets of our livelihood, from baking a cake, to walking across the street, to peeing our names in the snow. Is it possible, through meditation (ie. zazen), to reach a state of martial abiltiy whereby the conscious mind is either turned off or is in such a state of relaxation as to allow for an involuntary response of fighting capacity which results in a level of ability that far exceeds that of the conscious mind. I believe that modern sports medicine community refers to this as the "zone"? Is this possible and how specifically is it achieved? Perhaps only hard work and training achieves this. It's possible that it is a combination of both practice and this type of meditation. The other school of thought may say that if that mind believes it, it will be.

Kundalini is a little off the mark and was thrown in there for curiosity-sake. But it is possible that separating mind and body may play a part in the evolution of physiological functioning. Whether these changes result in a positive or negative outcome is beyond my personal experience. Please feel free to elaborate on this if it is at all possible.

Thanks again, gentlemen.
Puss 'n B**ts

Why is chi a bunch of bullshit? If you are looking for some weird energy with western science, you'll never find it. But if you just understand that its an old theory of how things worked *before* western science was around, it's understandable. Sure there's no such thing as chi and there's no such thing as the western "elements" of early times or the 'humours' of early times. They were just a way of explaining things. The important thing to look at is whether the things chi explains are true and accomplishable.

My apologies. If you will allow me to rephrase what I said in my previous post: The misinterpretation and misuse of the word "chi" is the real issue. Chi really is as real as an individual wants to believe in it. The reality is that chi has absolutely nothing to do with martial arts and what really chaps my hide is how the use of the word is misunderstood by some waiguo ren, half-assed internal martial artist, who sensationalized the arts and created this new age fad for taichi and chikung. I'm sure this was all done unwittingly, but nonetheless, the long-term effects of this was at one time unimagineable. At the same time, the exposure to the internal arts had a very positive effect and gave the western world a glimpse at the so-called internal. My heart-burn is that I don't like this new age marketing strategy used by many of these clowns who claim they are legitimate martial artists. If you want to teach meditation, by all means--teach it; but don't talk about martial arts because all your doing is waving your arms around and standing motionless and talking about feeling your chi. It is the exploitation of Chinese arts and this mystical approach to them that is so utterly ridiculous.

Boot

Das Booty,

An addition to the "Dummies" post.

If you seek to fondle tofu.

Tim,

>I don't practice any formal type of meditation

I'm slightly confused. Why can't the stance keeping (while maintaining proper state of mind/focus/etc) be considered the "formal type of meditation"? As far as I understand you employ this kind of practice in your school.
Could you clarify this?

As to the top NHB fighters, I'm not sure that many of them utilize traditional IMA training methods (please correct me if I'm wrong). But it doesn't mean that these methods suck, does it?

Anvar,
I agree, stance keeping is a form of standing meditation. That was not the question, the question was in referrence to Yogic meditation practices.

Your second comment makes no sense. The question was if meditation will help develop martial ability. My examples were of fighters that do not practice meditation yet have excellent martial skills and of another top fighter that credits Yoga and meditation with greatly increasing his actual fighting ability. Examples from both points of view. Maybe you should read my post again, a little more carefully.

Booty

Regarding your "chi" post, I do agree that chi is what you want it to be. However i believe that chi has to do with all things including martial arts. You would be surprised how strong the people are that "stand around waving their arms", believe me my father is one of them and he is exceptionaly strong and in very good health for being 43. My father agrees with me that if Tai Chi where added to his previous martial arts experiances it would greatly aid him in his fighting. Forgive me Tim for wandering from your disscusion of Yoga.

Firefrost

Will & The Booty,
I think you're both wrong. To the Chinese( Tim, or any other China Scholars please correct me if I'm wrong)the word Chi means many different things, depending on how the word is being used. As I understand it, one meaning is MOVEMENT. If you read the classics of IMA's with this in mind, that what they are talking about is a variety of qaulities of MOVEMENT, then the occlusion of mis-interpeted mysticism is stripped away( as well as the arrogant assumption of the inherent superiority of the Western conceptual framework). As to the commercializing of empty gestures and flowery fists, this happened in Old China without any help from hippie-dippy new-agers.

My understanding is that qi and qigong as words were "invented" in the last 100 years or so do describe things. I have never heard a consistently same definition regardless of what authority I have asked. There are many different types of qi according to TCM. I guess it all depends on your definition. Its just a word.

Wang(the founder of Yiquan) was the undisputed #1 fighter of China during a period of time claimed his highest level of training was just hanging out and standing around, sometimes waving his arms about......

Tim,

After re-reading your post I agree that I missed your point. My apologies.

Qi is an ooooooooooooooooold word.

Its on the sheep bone divinations, oldest written Chinese in the world. And what to do with qi has been in and out of almost everything ever since.

Tim,

Apart from Yoga, are there training methods from non-IMA martial arts that would compliment/replace standing meditation in the sense of focus/awareness development?

I was never exposed to such methods during my karate and sambo training, so I'm curious about what makes some of the non-IMA fighters "internal". Or it is the matter of natural abilities?

(Again sorry for my previous comments, I didn't mean to be disrespectful)

'Qi' is a very old word. It was originally written with a different character than the one now commonly used. The original character had the meaning of 'influences'. The modern character is the radical for 'steam' on the top with the symbol for 'rice' on the bottom (connoting the vapors rising from boiling rice). From 'vapors' comes the idea of 'air' or 'breath.'

In modern, spoken Chinese, the word "qi" is used commonly in many combinations. For example, the modern word for weather is "Tian Qi," or the qi of the sky. Air is called "kong qi,' the qi of empty space. The word is also often used in the abstract, much like we use the word "air" to describe a subjective condition (as in "he has an air about him" ). In Chinese medicine, there are many types of qi. Here the word is used more in its ancient connotation, as an invisible 'influence,' things are moving and changing but the causative force is unseen.

The Chinese grow up hearing the word qi in its various combinations describing various situations, and naturally have an almost intuitive sense of understanding of the term. Non-Chinese speakers run into trouble when they expect a single word, accurate translation of the word qi.

Anvar,
I think there are other, non-IMA training methods that can compliment standing meditation practices, but I think that stance keeping is best not completely replaced. Personally, I think if martial artists want to supplement their training with some type of meditative practice, Zhan Zhuang training is the best.

Like we discussed above, I believe the arts that are commonly referred to as 'Internal' are grouped together because they are based on similar principles and strategies. Principles of body use and technical application cannot belong to any one style or group of styles, they exist 'independently.' It doesn't really matter what you call your 'style' it is how you practice that makes the difference. Sambo is a good example, I have seen a number of Sambo grapplers that I would say practice the art as we practice the Internal arts. Sometimes it's the result of natural abilities, and most often it's the result of good training and hard work. I think it is also important to avoid believing that one style is superior to another. I believe every individual needs to be open minded and continually experiment with principles and methods of training, and then test the result with non-cooperative sparring partners. This provides a method of discovering what works best for you.

Tim,
Thanks for sharing some of your expertise regarding the Chinese language. Speaking of which, I'm going to be enrolling in a TCM college next year(mid-life crisis motivated career change), and it seems to me that the ability to read Chinese would be a tremendous asset. Any recomendations on non-university based programs?(I realize this is question is quite outside the domain of your web-site, so no biggie if you don't feel like answering).

Joe,
Sorry, I have no idea about Chinese language studies (university or non) in the States.

Tim,
I practice the 16 Xing Yi Nei Gong exercises from the book and the video which you made. Now I'm wondering if I should ignore the references to qi in the description and practice of the exercises. I know that alignments, relaxation, and intent are all requirements for performing the exercises. However, I think the book definitely regards qi as something to be stored (dantein) and flowed (to the hands). In light of your view of qi, then, what exactly should one's mindset be when performing the 16 exercises?

Hi Jeff,
When I was taught the Sixteen Exercises, my teacher emphasized alignment, relaxation, focusing on feeling stable in the positions and also 'imagining' a slight resistance around the body (as if the air is thicker than normal). It is also important to coordinate the breath with the movements.

Tim - Thanks for your response. I, too, will focus on alignment, relaxation, and stability while paying attention to the breath as the primary concerns of the exercises. Perhaps (with much practice) I'll existentially understand the references to "qi" elucidated by Wang Lian Yi in his "songs" of each exercise...