For those of you with Showtime, Penn and Teller's newest episone of "Bullshit" is on the martial arts.

It's sad and hilarious at the same time.

I ordered Showtime just to see.
Tai Cheezy! Is what they call a chi huggin nut case Tai Chi instructor. Oh so many of them out there.
Much truth to their take on money, injury and self defence.

http://www.casttv.com/shows/penn-teller-bullshit/martial-arts/asrh05

I found the "wax on, wax off" section quiet interesting

I watched this and wasn't sure which I found more disturbing:
The nonsense martial arts that were being taught, or the arrogant attitudes of the "know it all" presenters.
I mean, skepticism is very trendy these days- (and it has done a lot of good for martial arts in exposing a lot of nonsense) but it's very easy to just sit there and laugh at everybody crying "Bullshit" and I find it quite depressing.
The current trendy attitude these days seems to be that all spirituality, culture and art are pointless, except for the American ones.
Or is it just me?

"...all spirituality, culture and art are pointless..."

I don't think that was the point. I think the point was more about self-defense and people stealing your money via false claims.

Exactly.

There is no such thing as "spirituality" outside a value judgement an individual chooses to make about something they think or do.

"Martial arts" are developed in specific cultures, but fighting transcends any collective human ritual.

And "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

If someone claims they have the methods that will allow you to learn how to actually defend yourself/fight, the addition of concepts like "spirituality" and "culture" should immediately be red flags for marketing over substance.

Same for health practices in my opinion.

Unless you consider having conversations with your organs somehow spiritual.

Tim,
I agree to a large extent but...

Like you, my background is Chinese arts, plus for the last 5 years I have studied BJJ with Braulio Estima.
All arts are inseparable from their culture- the Brazilian culture being different from the Japanese has affected their training and art.
I recently went to study MMA in Thailand. The MMA culture there has a distinctly American flavor- music, tattoos, language used in class being similar to that used in the 'Penn and Teller' episode.
I had studied in China in a very different environment, but as you say:'fighting transcends any collective human ritual' and found that at its core: Fighting is fighting.

I guess I agree that much of what is taught in martial arts is nonsense. You ask if I believe that having conversations with your organs spiritual- I think that this woman was clearly deluded, but in Thailand I saw a lot of fighters taking various illegal substances and wanted to say to them: 'Listen to your organs!' - so maybe I do believe it!
You say that ""art" is in the eye of the beholder" so I guess that TO ME- penn and teller giving 'black aprons' to girls with plastic breasts is not funny, and the iconic image of 'Indiana Jones' shooting the swordsman is meant to represent the superiority of their culture over the somehow backwards cultures that practise martial arts.

I suppose I'm just being uptight- but P&T come across as schoolyard bully types and I just find them somehow offensive.

"the addition of concepts like "spirituality" and "culture" should immediately be red flags for marketing over substance." Only if the teacher claims that these things are IN THEMSELVES going to help you in a fight. Ultimately, it's the training methods that will help you prevail in self defence, but you can learn these in an environment that has a positive set of values, or you can learn in a culture that considers the highest human achievement is to become like a 'pit bull'.
In my school I have three programs: One for relaxation and stress relief (Taiji), one for classical forms and weapons (Kung Fu), and one for realistic self defense (MMA). That way I can teach the whole spectrum of the art, but people train for different reasons and will take the class(es) that suits them- I am not misleading anybody.
I have great respect for you and your work, Tim, but there seems to be a trend towards having to be a skeptical, trash talking tough guy to be perceived as being genuine- this is not just in martial arts but seems to be pervading everywhere these days. I really think that we should be speaking out against this. Part of the appeal of martial arts to me was always the code that went with it- and whilst I greatly appreciate the training methods that have come from modern MMA- I think it may turn martial arts from something that you learn to defend against bullies- to something that bullies learn so that they can get better at beating people up.

I did not see the show, but as relates to "spiritual" and "fighting, I think it depends what you mean by those terms - or what the original culture meant...

"Fighting" and "Sport Fighting" are two different things, and get conflated.

Spirit and "fighting spirit" or "warrior mindset" can also mean different things.


If you have a high likelihood of facing your actual death when you "fight," (in other words, it is not a sport or a game but a professional responsibility) you might tend to take a more "spiritual" view of the idea of fighting as a life and death pursuit.

Not in the airy-fairy celestial posturing way of it, but rather in the way of steeling your mind and body for dealing with the fear of death and transcending it to perform at an optimal level and thus more likely survive.

In some traditional cultures, the studies of "the mind" at this kind of level, and its terminology were more likely found in temples than in human performance science, so though the warrior and the priest may have been discussing these concepts for different purposes, the medium was similar or the same.

For example, the classical Japanese martial arts are deeply entwined with esoteric Buddhism, but more for the mental training and spiritual/magical protection from enemies it offered to warriors who might face death, and believed in all sorts of supernatural things and the power and pollution of "death energy."

As well, with some, killing enough people in a Buddhist culture with very little wiggle room regarding what things like that mean for your spirituality, it might weigh on you over the years, you might start to wonder what you could do to "redeem" yourself from these acts, and thereby turn your martial practice from something specifically intended to kill to something that you had so mastered you no longer needed to kill, even if you could, because you had the skill and composure to avoid it. At least in an ideal sense.

As the definition of the modern "martial artist" has radically changed (ever having been in a real fight being uncommon for most martial artists, let alone facing death), and as we unplug them from the spiritual and superstitious ideas of their home cultures and look at them from a skeptical as well as comfortable, middle class American, diverting avocation type perspective, I do think the idea of "spiritual" really rings kind of hollow.

"...Tim, but there seems to be a trend towards having to be a skeptical, trash talking tough guy to be perceived as being genuine- this is not just in martial arts but seems to be pervading everywhere these days..."

I haven't gotten that impression. Fedor or Verdum do not give that impression. GSP doesn't give that impression. Randy couture doesn't give that impression. Anderson Silva doesn't give that impression. Frankie Edgar doesn't give that impression. Tim certainly doesn't give that impression.

It seems you took the show too personally.

It seems what you offer at your school is perfect. It fulfills a variety of needs.

Great post, Kit. (as usual)

Kit: Very thought provoking, thank you.

Backarcher-
you are right! I did over react.
It was because I had seen several episodes of it and it was starting to bug me. My references to spiritual stuff was referring to other episodes of the series- not the Martial arts one.

Skepticism is a good medicine for the gullible, but as a steady diet I find it difficult to digest. I think that I will put the bottle away, and when I find myself talking to my internal organs too much I will take it out and have another dose!
I agree that the top fighters you mentioned do not give such an impression,I was referring to the general feeling of the sport. Re-reading my post I come across as a bit of a twit! Perhaps I took it personally because I spent 25 years practicing something and when I finally get it, it becomes something that is now thought of as ridiculous.
I should really learn to laugh more...

Keep up the good work, guys!

David,

I think Penn and Teller, while fundamentally believing in their message, go out of their way to be offensive (good television). I like those two and find their show very entertaining for the most part.

Good point about all arts being inseparable from their culture. For the most part, I agree when it comes to an art's development. My point was commercial martial arts teachers using culture as a marketing tool usually belies lack of real ability. I rarely see reenactors that can actually fight.

I think the trend of skeptical (as in skeptical of everyone's art but their own) trash talking tough guys has been around a long time, certainly since I started practicing the martial arts in the 70's.

I think the situation was actually worse before the advent of MMA. Now you can talk trash but if you don't step up to prove what you say, since now there is a widespread and available venue, you will almost invariably be perceived as less genuine by most rational people.

Oh, I follow you Tim - the people frequently aping the most "exotic" aspects of Asian martial arts often have the least actual exposure to Asian culture: the people most wanting to be "modern samurai" and talking all sorts of "spirtual" gobbledy-gook often have little understanding of how that spirituality was actually manifested within the particular cultural context, let alone how it pertained - for them - to fighting in mortal combat.

My suggestion is only that just because the commercial American "studios" (how I hate that term) are parading an exotic misunderstanding of the spiritual aspects of martial arts doesn't mean there wasn't/isn't a spiritual aspect from the POV of the original teachings.

The people we are talking about wouldn't even know the difference.

Kit,

Exactly my point.

Guys like you are qualified to talk about martial arts in broader terms, since you actually have experience with life or death situations.

I do agree that the founders/original practitioners of the traditional arts did have a culturally determined "spiritual" context that framed their teachings, exactly because they were orienting their teaching from real life and death experiences as well.

No amount of dressing up like them, repeating what they wrote or vicarious association will ever make it real without such experience.

That's why I consider myself a "fighter/coach," not a "warrior."

"No amount of dressing up like them, repeating what they wrote or vicarious association will ever make it real without such experience."
For some people, the dressing up, learning oriental terms etc. is a way to AVOID the actual fighting, whilst rationalizing to themselves that they are doing "Martial Arts". Its self delusion- you can tell yourself you are a fighter but without actually practicing fighting, you are not going to become one!
However- I think that traditional martial arts can be an education on many levels, and fighting is only one part of that. For example: I certainly do not think that learning Chinese terminology will make me a better fighter, but staying up until dawn talking kung fu with my Sifu are some of my fondest memories: And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't learned his language. The philosophy and culture doesn't of itself give you fighting skill, but perhaps it gives you something to fight FOR?

Tim- if you were to have your time again in the 21st century, would you still repeat the whole Taiwan experience? Would you still be the person you are now if you'd just learned fighting techniques from a "coach", or did the traditional student/teacher relationship give you valuable lessons that made you into the person you are today?

This is a very nice discussion. Thank you Kit,David,Tim.

I observe that for many an average enthusiast like me - who just goes twice a week for fun and health** - there is still a temptation to frame these activities (even boxing) in spiritual or philosophical context. Do you think it's symptomatic of our modern society that is almost devoid of psychosomatic avenues into spirituality? People nowadays seem to long for something 'spiritual', but it's rather something to 'do' than 'believe in'.

RJ

**(although my wife often asks where is the fun and health in getting bullied by a maniacal Estonian southpaw, or, on saturdays, waving hands in clouds with octogenarians)

Ironically,
For those of us who are looking for psychosomatic avenues, we still tend to do too little 'doing' and too much vicarious association (I like that term) by reading and talking about it.

David,

"Would you still be the person you are now if you'd just learned fighting techniques from a "coach", or did the traditional student/teacher relationship give you valuable lessons that made you into the person you are today?"

Is it fair to assume a "coach" couldn't provide a worthwhile student/teacher relationship (perhaps because he's ignorant of archaic forms?) and his teaching therefore is automatically devoid of valuable lessons? Does the teacher have to be Chinese or somehow have a genetic inheritance of traditional knowledge in order for him to impart valuable life lessons? The most valuable lessons I learned, that shaped me into the man I am today I learned from my father, and he was a hillbilly.

Rangga,

In my opinion, when a person says "spiritual," what they really mean is "emotional." They assign a value judgement to something because it makes them "feel" a certain way (usually more secure). The feeling is self-generated, it's based completely on a decision they made in their minds, there is no separate "spiritual" value apart from their imagination. Activities like worshiping ideas, talking to yourself in your head and pretending it's someone else or conforming to ritual behavior (martial or otherwise) is no more spiritual than sleeping.

If the goal is self-discipline, that's an entirely different pursuit. I think the difference lies in wether or not the seeker is self-aware and clear on their purpose.

The good news is, absolutely anything can be a "spiritual" pursuit if you decide it is. This can save the average seeker lots of time and money.

"Is it fair to assume a "coach" couldn't provide a worthwhile student/teacher relationship (perhaps because he's ignorant of archaic forms?) and his teaching therefore is automatically devoid of valuable lessons? Does the teacher have to be Chinese or somehow have a genetic inheritance of traditional knowledge in order for him to impart valuable life lessons? The most valuable lessons I learned, that shaped me into the man I am today I learned from my father, and he was a hillbilly. "

No- it's not fair to assume that. But that's not what I said -I really didn't mean it that way at all.
Perhaps I should have put it better.

I certainly don't think you have to be Chinese to teach martial arts. (I'm English- we invented soccer and cricket and it seems that every other country is better than us at those!)

What I meant was that the life experiences of traveling abroad, learning another culture and language must have been very valuable in broadening your horizons, opening your mind and making you into the person you are today. Simply learning fighting techniques in an MMA gym would not NECESSARILY have imparted the same education to you. Many of my students come and have a good class and go away happy. But I haven't necessarily taught them any deeper life lessons. (Nor am I trying to!) I think to REALLY learn from somebody, the relationship cannot be so casual- it must be deep. Like the relationship with a father.

I agree that there are lots of people who affect orientalism, wear a gi or satin suit and can't fight for toffee-
But there are also a lot of kids who wear 'tapout' Tshirts, "Sprawl" short, lots of tattoos and a scary haircut who also have no fighting skill! As MMA becomes mainstream, people will affect the culture just as my generation did with 'kung fu'. The difference is, MMA culture is very American so it does not seem foreign to you.

David,

It's true that living and traveling abroad and learning another language were valuable in broadening my horizons, actually those experiences would have had the same effect even if I hadn't studied martial arts.

I agree that deeper relationships have the potential to create more profound learning experiences, but it all depends on the coach/teacher and students, not so much which style of martial arts is offered or where the school is located. In the MMA gyms I've trained and worked in, most of the serious students love their coaches, treat them as role models to a certain extent and form strong bonds with their teammates.

For the record, anyone walking around wearing a Tapout shirt and Sprawl shorts almost certainly doesn't train. It's like the uniform for MMA poseurs. I pray the trend doesn't catch on in England (you guys also invented boxing and catch wrestling, so thanks for that).

Hi Tim,
I do have an existentialist take on spirituality, so as to share a lot of your view. So when I find myself attracted to that sort of thing, it is with some awareness that it is just be a way to give myself certainty and comfort. But we humans are not rational all the time, and it is just my observation that people will always be attracted to that sort of thing - so that will always be a big consideration in selling martial arts.

I saw a documentary where some of the top knife fighters of the philippines are into talismans and other weird rituals supposed to promote their invincibility. Well, if it helps them to calm their mind and therefore gives them an edge, why not?

"The good news is, absolutely anything can be a "spiritual" pursuit if you decide it is. "

Yep, some fellow students in my taichi school are very 'spiritual' but I find that pushing yourself to exhaustion for hours during a triathlon or marathon event is good training for the mind and qualifies better than taichi as a "spiritual" exercise.

"Well, if it helps them to calm their mind and therefore gives them an edge, why not?"

As long as they don't start believing they are bulletproof (The Boxer Rebellion and Ghost Dance come to mind).