Sounds like a blurb on a magazine cover. Anyway, most famous masters of this century are from the early part of it. During those rather rough times, most of these masters have been in several life-and-death type encounters (at least the ones I read about). With this experience, many of them are credited with creating modern variations of their arts. Since that generation, times have gotten a lot easier, and the martial arts seem more sport or meditation, many losing their combative edge. More and more, they turn into lifeless traditions and cease to evolve. I personally feel that in order to keep the arts changing with the times, one must test its effectiveness in current conditions or it will just become a stiff, dead relic with little real meaning. Now, I understand Tim must already think me a wag, so let me state emphatically that I do NOT condone running around starting trouble. I don't really know how one would go around in our society gaining this experience. The practical aspects of such an approach are seemingly non-existant. And I would never say it is required of a martial artist to "prove" himself. But something has been dawning on me lately. When we decide to take up an art, we always think about what it can do for us, in terms of health, defense, competition, mental conditioning, etc. How many of us have thought of what WE could contribute to IT? Most specifically, are we ready to do what it takes to keep it alive for the next generation, even if that means risking injury or death? So many styles today seem to be just a name of an art with base motor-functions similiar to the original movements remaining like empty husks. Remember that the original fighters of long ago only wanted something that helped them kill their enemies, they didn't care about the 5 elements or Yin-Yang, etc. But if my premise is correct, then what about the moral aspects as viewed by supposedly "enlightened" individuals? I don't claim to know the answer, but I am curious as to the responses.

The 'spiritual' aspects of the arts don't seem to have been added to them until those skills began to be less necessary in the society. (although there may have been tests of character or tenacity)

One chinese master very accurately described karate just as Funakoshi had actually done, taken out anything dangerous and made into a physical exercise for junior high school kids. Yet westerners practice this and think they are learning to kill with their bare hands

Listen too, to many teachers who so often say 'You should do xyz exercise, I did it for fifteen minutes a day, my teacher did it for one hour a day, and his teacher did it for three hours a day" Then people wonder why they don't acheive higher levels of skill. It's part of the 'ten easy lessons' mentality also.

Remember schools are businesses, that's why there are six year olds with black belts. If the schools were only geared to those who would train as if for the olympics or to be a professional fighter, there would be very few schools. Most people who train are really only interrested in doing it casually, and so often even those who are serious don't know that they are training in a sport, not the defense or fighting art they thought they were in, and their teachers don't know any better either.

All too true. Incidentally, I feel the same away about the more common types of karate, but I just didn't want to offend anyone. I also didn't want to sound like some "my art is so deadly that...blah, blah" idiot. So I take it you feel intensity of training is about as extreme as we can morally get in developing our systems in this day and age?

Kenneth

I'm not sure what your question is. I think you are saying all we can do is find a system and instruction that seem valid and train seriously, that there are few opportunities to 'try it out' than in the past.

There are ample places in this country to get a chance to 'try it out'. You can find a fight with any degree of seriousness you desire, the people and places are real, and they can be found where ever you live

Remember too, that if sucessfully defending yourself from an unprovoked attack, expect to be arrested (even if it is known that you were not the aggressor), and then sued by the person who attacked you. This is a fact of life. I've had a taste of this but from a very different situation. (Anybody who scoffs at this should wake up) You need to read Massad Ayoobs classic 'In The Gravest Extreme'

Sorry I've drifted off a bit, but Ayoob is an eye opener, must reading. Better check out Payton Quinns material on scenerio training as well. These guys are must reading and will answer important questions that you probably didn't know to ask.

Side note on Ayoob, much of his decades of research was on why police firearms training fails horribly when attempted in life or dead situations. Same concepts apply to boxing.

I understand the legal implications. I also live in the "crack cocaine capital of the US" (Fort Pierce), so fights aren't hard to come by. I was wondering how differing personalities would view the moral implications of such an approach (or if they feel there even is one). I have read Ayoob in the past (though not that particular book) as well as Bill Jordan. He is exceptionally enlightening. The lessons learned about police shootouts were learned at the expense of officers' lives all too often. But this is what it took to get data to develop a realistic firearms training method that could save the lives of future cops. You are quite correct that the same applies to boxing, and that is my point. Without such experiences (if we survive them), how can we know our skills are realistic? We train today for our own benefit (not necessarily survival related), but past generations fought to protect their families, and had to have the most effective techniques they could amass or develop, so were willing to risk all. And I don't buy that "sparring is the closest thing" stuff. One small change of rules or circumstance can make the difference between winning and losing for a particular opponent, and that is a 100% difference, so I don't see how it comes "close". It may be the next-best thing, but "next" means way, way back from the reality. Bear in mind it's not like I've never done tournament-type sparring, I grew up training TKD in korea, and did some karate when I got out of the Army. I found that training to develop winning reflexes under the rules caused suppression of natural instincts, but I guess the biggest difference was in the mindset, and how it affected my physiology and thought processes.

Kenneth

I think you're absolutly on about how training for sport can suppress or interfer with your fighting instincts, that's why drills are better than 'free fighting, sparing', etc. Tim is right on that such drills need to become progressivly 'non-cooperative'.

Do not hesitate to get 'In The Gravest Extreme'. I learned only recently that he had to omit one chapter as the (then) publisher felt it was too frightening, dealing with deadly force when necessary against a family member.

Four years ago I was arrested, although later the prosecutors formally declined to press charges. For several years a 'problem person' kept trying to have me arrested. It was Ayoobs works that prepared me for those situations. Had I not read and reread them years earlier, things might have gone differently.

Anyone who considers that they may ever use force must read Ayoobs works.

Sad that these "problem" persons in our LE communities (who are just scumbags higher up the social ladder) think that it is ok to ruin lives for personal gain or on a whim. Even sadder is that since they number among the real LE people, they often get the protection that such camraderie provides. About 10-12 yrs ago, here in florida, a woman who had to shoot an assailant for self-preservation was so hounded by the prosecutor and the Miami Herald that she suffered a stroke. Ayoob managed to keep her out of prison with his expert testimony. I think I will take your advice and get that book. Yes, our sticking hands turns into free-fighting eventually, but by taking this path, the result seems more varied and real since we can't really progress until we're good enough to handle it.

Kenneth

I'm in Bradenton.

How far is that from Fort Pierce, Mark? Here's my Email: ksohl@bellsouth.net

Nice title for a thread, very provocative.

The only thing I have to say is that "times getting easier" didn't just happen by itself. The world has what, about twice as many people now as it did 100 years ago? And the division of resources hasnt gotten any fairer. So if it is a generally less violent place, than the only reason must be that people have established a better control over the use of violence. In as much as being a martial "artist" is about being able to solve violent problems and not just being able to kick ass, I'd say that a reduction in frequency of problems within a rapidly increasing population indicates that, speaking abstractly, there has been a positive development in the general quality of martial arts over time. Of course, whether or not specific individuals or groups choose to participate in this evolution is entirely up to them...

"Has your MA decayed?"

No.

You have to have faith in your system. That's rule #1. That includes your teacher of course.

If adults learning Junior High Karate have faith that they will be able to defend themselves, well maytbe they will. It would depend on the situation. If they are foolhardy enough to bite off more than they can chew that would probably happen without the Karate anyway.

If someone is training in the wrong place for the wrong reasons is it up to us to correct their mistakes? How would we do it? There are too many people in this category to even worry about it.

Most people who venture into any kind of MA training quickly drop out. If they do stay with it they usually begin to figure things out. If what they are getting isn't right for them then they move on to something else.

One way to help such people would be for those of us to stick with it to keep working hard so that someday we can be the trainers & people looking for answers will come to us. They should have faith in our system & we should not let them down.

Of course it's difficult to open a school, but there are many ways to help people interested in the MAs. For example, my fellow student do various forms of community outreach to educate people about TCC.

I consider myself lucky for placing my faith in a system & a teacher that were more than worthy of it. I know this sounds preachy, but it is written about quite frequently - if you don't start out with faith in the system you are trying out you will be full of doubt & unable to learn even if there is something worth learning.

Up until I started my journey in TCC I was the biggest sceptic out there. But part of all good MA training means giving up part of yourself. So even when certain things didn't make sense at first I stuck with it. I could see others having success with it & I became determined to see it through. Soon enough I reaped the rewards & I didn't have to go on faith anymore.

Now I'm still a sceptic, just not the biggest one out there. The MAs & TCC in particular have opened my eyes to seeing things differently. I feel like there is no end to what I will learn.

But as I said I'm lucky. I can imagine if you live in certain areas you may not find the right fit for you, nothing that will stand the test of time. But more often than not if you are educated, open minded & persistent you will get what you need.

We don't have to look for trouble to know our art hasn't decayed either. There are other ways. YCF said something to the effect of "Hitting is not correct. Not hitting is not correct. To defeat the opponent mentally is correct." In my limited experience in actual situations I have come quickly to know just how true that is.