Hey Uncle Tim,

How would you size up an opponent in a street confrontation? Specifically, say the guys a huge bodybuilder type? (Meaning, you think he has superior size and strength over you) And you have no alternative but to fight, would you try to stay outside an wack him, or would you try to tie him up and take him down? Curious...Oh yeah, the other variable I'll throw in the mix is you got a chemical cocktail screaming through your veins because you're scared sh$t he's going to take your dentures out.

Just a thought, no painters or anything.

Macaco fino

Hmmm, It's hard to give a definitive answer to the question as it all depends on the actual situation, environment... If I have to give a general answer, I would probably attack first, and work off of the opponent's reaction. My personal preference would be to take him to the ground as fast as possible, and then make good my escape. The longer you are trading blows with an opponent, the greater the chance of you getting hurt. Are you sure I just couldn't talk him into going somewhere for a protein shake?

These days it seems likely your opponent is going to have PCP or other chemical cocktail screaming through his veins. Macaco, I'd take a tape measure and, on the pretext of taking inseam measurements, shoulder him in the groin to take him down with one of those effortless combat throws. Maybe that wouldn't work.

"Sizing Up" Tips:
Knowing that someone is an opponent is helpful, so don't ignore that internal alarm that we all have (but usually ignore or don't "listen" to 'cause we're too busy listening to our own "mind chatter"). I don't know how, but we are warned naturally within our own bodies when harmful intent is directed at us. Learn to recognize this & use it (if you will).
Avoid a struggle. If you've got time to size up an opponent you may have time to escape the situation. You may misjudge your opponent's capabilities, or not -- either way you may be in for a world of hurt/death (some people are armed, while others are deadly unarmed -- & your opponent may have friends nearby...try not to stick around & find out).
Body-builder types tend to react with pain when pressure point grabs/pinches are used on certain muscular areas (perhaps because their muscles are in an almost constant state of mass repair from their workouts). Watch out if that massive opponent isn't a body-builder -- he may just be one tough dude who will crush you (& that body-builder may do the same once he gets over the initial shock -- you better be moving & try to keep him from holding on to you).
Small people can kick butt too. Don't get cocky with this sizing up thing.
With "effortless combat throws" small & large people (in general) are equally easy to throw -- if all goes well. If something goes wrong & you chose to muscle a technique gone bad (ignoring the 2d piece of advice above), then a larger opponent will be more difficult to throw than a smaller one (all other factors being equal); so you may want to save your throwing for smaller opponents until you're proficient enough to adapt to change (in this case you would try to knock larger opponents down -- letting gravity do as much of your work as possible). Throws are great if they're set up & executed properly -- which also means quickly/sneakily enough so that the opponent doesn't have time for countermeasures (as many throws are easily countered -- given enough reaction time).
Size up your environment (besides the presence of an opponent's "friends" in the area). How much space do you have to move in? Stepping back at a 45-degree angle doesn't work well when there's a piece of furniture, or a sales counter, bar, or wall in the way. You may have to keep fairly upright & pivot.
Size yourself up. Are you energetic, tired, groggy? Are you wearing loose clothing or tight clothing? One TKD instructor almost got himself killed by a knife-wielding individual becuase he was wearing tight jeans at the request of his (then) girlfriend -- the kicking counter he had practiced couldn't work (luckily the bad guy goofed too & was then taken out with hand technique). Are you physically loose or tight? Is it warm or cold? You may get a cramp & have to work around it. You may suffer an injury & thus use another approach to compensate. You can always accurately size yourself up -- if you're honest & aware.
I hope this helps. I've had two "quick sizing up" methods that have worked well: (1) suspect trouble coming, MOVE; (2) see trouble coming, MOVE. Martial-arts study/practice helps ensure that the move is appropriate for the circumstance. Note: before I started practicing martial arts I didn't move, or I moved inappropriately (& got injured time after time); since then martial training has been very, very good for me.
It's time for some power exercises. The Marines have a saying, that paraphrased is: the more you train, the less you bleed. And that sizes up martial arts.

Maybe if the TKD guy had been wearing his girlfriend's skirt, that kicking counter would have worked. ;-] With my belly, tight jeans aren't an option, fortunately. Unfortunately, high-kicking counters aren't either.

Hey Observer,
I too have difficulties with many kicks, so I have but a few low ones that I'm working on developing. Some people can pull off high kicking counters -- one over-the-counter-high-kicking-counter comes to mind:
An acomplished martial-arts practitioner was in the process of being robbed at gunpoint (at a store he worked at); he knocked the would-be robber out cold with a kick to the head which came up & over the sales counter. It probably surprised the criminal as he was most likely looking at the martial artist's face & raised hands. I DON'T THINK THE CRIMINAL APPROPRIATELY SIZED UP THE SITUATION THAT HE WAS PUTTING HIMSELF INTO. {:o)

Right on. I don't put down high kicks just because I can't do them. That kick you describe slammed a most deserving head. And it's a good example of the importance of sizing the situation up then acting timely (i.e., before the situation changes). The kicker had the element of surprise/detraction.

Mike,
Since you gave us ""Sizing Up" Tips:". What is your background? Cop,Bouncer,Bodyguard, etc. of some sort?

Hey Another...,
Punching bag! And martial-arts enthusiast. Here's a little (perhaps a little too much) background on me:
Before I could read much at all I was looking at the pictures in a book about judo (under the covers at night with a flashlight). I was a scrapper in K-2d grades, but a poor diet & poor health had me a losing scrapper by the 3d or 4th grade. Local "gang wars" left me with a lazy left eye (the ol' slingshot-assisted rock-to-head principal). Lost a knife fight (I had the knife -- later kid's dad had his own bigger knife to my face...I got the message).
Dad then got custody of me (& fed me) -- and my health eventually returned; but dad (who was a scrapper: golden gloves boxer, judo brown belt, U.S. Marine close-combat instructor in Korean War era, policeman & bad-ass control freak with quick hands) didn't allow me to be trained -- and I was begging him for martial-arts lessons from age 11 onward! He waited 'til I was 17 & on my way to Boot Camp for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children before he showed me anything (one bayonet move, one knife move, & a couple of judo moves). 5th/6th grade I lied about fighting a kid that my dad wanted me to fight (for having drained the battery in my science project) -- luckily the kid broke his leg allowing me to lie & say that I broke it (Why lie? 'Cause I was scared to fight the kid & I was being slapped & slammed by dad each day I didn't!). Dad was so proud when he bought the lie (& I was so relieved that I wouldn't be bounced off the walls anymore over this). Oh, I almost forgot...he once had my older sister & I box (I was 12 or 13, she was 14 or 15 years old). Blood was everywhere: on the carpet, on the Venetian blinds, on our clothes, & even on the ceiling! My blood. My sister has a mean jab (& she knees hard too)! We fought two 45-minute rounds (with just enough time between rounds for a quick bathroom break & change of blood-soaked t-shirt). I believe I won when my sister's arms tired & she saw the "I'm going to kill you NOW" look on my face, because she turned & ran away. I tackled her on a staircase & was about to slam her head into the edge of a stair -- repeatedly -- when my gorilla-sized dad pulled me off of her. Yes, I really was going to kill her at that time -- that was my intention & I had finally gotten a "superior angle." Yes, I had a warped childhood (a very long story fit for some other discussion board -- or none at all).
High school (during the Bruce Lee movie age): bussing & race riots. I was now reading mail-order martial arts books (some better than others -- some worthless). Got knocked on my butt my freshman year by a senior GIRL while demonstrating the first technique in one of those worthless "kung fu" books. Felt silly, and I was! I was a punching bag for three hoodlums (two short twins & one stocky "Spike" type); got stomped upon: a flying kick from the rear knocked me down onto my belly & approximately 12-to-15 people (some downright heavy) ran across my head & back. I spent Christmas vacation laid out on a bed (dad didn't want to spend any $ on medical treatment); older student came at me with an umbrella (students at Inglewood High used anything that wasn't typically a weapon as weapons) -- umbrellas break easily (I was knocked down but managed to ward off any harm by pivoting so that feet were ready to kick whenever he got close -- he decided it wasn't worth pursuing after a little while); spark plug thrown at me from behind -- missed by several inches (might have killed me otherwise); deliberately elbowed in head (double-arm elbow attack) during basketball game -- rung my bell but was able to avoid repeated attempts (students loved sucker punches); initiated a fight (upset over calousness of a thief): would have killed him (I really tried to) but my aim was off when I went for the throat (hit his chest -- he was tall, & I'm slightly cross-eyed from rock above) -- went to ground, I gained an advantage just as his friend pulled me off of him. A coach then grabbed him as he got to his feet -- & let him go as I was scanning the ground for my notebook & other property. I almost lost a tooth over it (uppercut). Dentist pulled cutting end of tooth away from roof of mouth & said pray it doesn't turn black (I did, it didn't). NOTE: after I initiated a fight (this fight) all bullying of me stopped!!!
USMC (1977-88): (1) didn't get hand-to-hand due to political situation on west coast at the time (Parris Island recruits got hand-to-hand I believe); (2) did get limited bayonet "kata" & "pillow-like Q-tip" practice. My dad gave me one excellent bayonet tip but it doesn't work with pillows. It was also the first time that I wore a football helmet (it restricts peripheral vision). I "won" a one-on-one (how I don't know -- it's a GD pillow fight). I lost (really) a one against two -- I lost cause I decided that I was going to be the first guy ever to kill with a pillow-stick (I swung way too hard -- & missed = my back to two opponents = "Where did they go?" = LOSER!). Had I a real rifle & bayonet I know my strategy would have been more subtle; (3) read Bruce Lee's Fighting Method during infantry training, then sparred with a TKD guy who was mopping up the floor with me -- until the fight was called off, me the "winner" by accident: my watchband cut him as I attempted a backhand to his head (he was still full of fight & could have crushed me but someone thru in that "rule" of "first blood" which saved me from further beating: he was literally kicking the hell out of me...I flew thru the air with the greatest of ease: by foot-assisted take off!...again & again); (4) Blanket Party: I made yet another tactical error & ended up tied to a bed & beaten (mostly from the waist down) -- thumb dislocated (Note: I got off light -- at approximately the same time another Marine made the same error & ended up the same with one difference: they left a knife sticking in his heart!); (5) though I was a fair catch-as-catch-can wrestling-scrapper as a kid, one ex-HS wrestler put me into one bad situation after another (even long after I had called it quits -- he was another merciless power freak) -- I had never been so exhausted; (6) missed a martial-arts demo by FBI (but heard it was typical "show"); (7) saw TKD/Hapkido martial-arts demo put on by jarheads; (8) Platoon Leader began karate instruction (1 or 2 lessons before someone up the chain of command pulled the plug on it); (9) took beginning (Shotokan) karate course at community college & further study (6 months or so) semi-private & private; (10) saw martial-arts magazines on Okinawa (the pictures were eye-openers for me; (11) I was roaming freely in the Philipines during the revolution (a long, deadly story).
Life after the Corps (1988-present): (1) 1 or 2 months Shotokan Karate Club at state university ('til midterms, etc. got in way; note: this Shotokan different from other); (2) spent a few months with Okinawa-te; (3) injured from years in the Corps, searching for a body-friendly art that kicks butt (was leaning towards lua but didn't find it on a silver platter): tried Lima-Lama & some other stuff (like kenpo) for a few months; (3) spent about six months taking semi-private ba-gua lessons & some other stuff (i.e.: lama kenpo -- but this only for 3 weeks); (4) attacked in downtown LA by a young, stocky "homeless(?)" man -- sensed it coming beforehand, responded with a ba-gua exercise/drill (he "impaled" his hand on my elbow & ceased hostilities -- I didn't press my luck nor did I break the law by seeking vengence; vengence is the Lord's); (5) lived in a "crackhouse" in Compton for about nine months until the police advised that it was time for me to go (during that time I had early bodily warnings of things unseen, such as a dry run on hamstringing me by a local hoodlum); (6) witnessed & sometimes broke up many, many fights between children & one between adults in Compton (even dodged rocks thrown by teens); (7) was in Compton during last riot there (but not for too long!); (8) studied again for about a year with a fine m-a instructor (doing some of that "other stuff")who just recently stopped teaching, at which time my work situation changed allowing me to take Xing-Yi (Hsing-I) -- I've probably had 5 or 6 whole lessons now: I'M (still) A BEGINNER IN THE MARTIAL ARTS, though I plan to get proficient at one thing if not a few things...primarily I'm searching for a feeling (I think I'll know it when I finally get it -- I'm a slow learner of physical things).
I skipped some firearms related stuff & things that go boom (due to length, time, etc.). I won't talk/write about everything [Uncle Sam says that's a no-no (& if you think Jimmy Woo had a "Devil Uncle," just try getting in the way of Unc Sam!) -- my memory isn't the greatest anyway & I don't remember everything (perhaps too many hits to the head, eh?)]. PLEASE, FOR SAKE OF TIME & SPACE, DON'T ASK GENERAL QUESTIONS ('though I may answer with generalities). If your questions are more specific, then I'll save time answering (please have mercy on me...& on those who may read this stuff) {:o)

Thank you. You have lead quite a life!

Hey Another Obs-,
You're welcome. You jarred my memory a bit [it turns out that I skipped at least one...er, two...lesson-learning "adventure(s)"]. My plan is to comment when & where I feel I can add something of value as these discussion board stories & comments unfold -- and some of my suggestions are things that I myself am working on internalizing [as right now much of it is hit-or-miss (i.e.: sometimes I'm more aware than others)]. Some of my suggestions I am merely passing on from instructors & author-instructors (I'm fairly well read -- I worked at a martial-arts supply store for a time to boot: it was a "Mecca" of information with a lot of contacts); nevertheless, many of these I've experienced first hand (before or after hearing them from others) & I've found them useful (but only when I use 'em).
So as to get the discussion more on course again (from the original post, directed to Tim; now here's my 2 cents):
"...would you try to stay outside an wack him, or would you try to tie him up and take him down?" Some martial artists would TRY to do something while other martial artists WON'T TRY to do anything:
What I'm writing here is that some martial artists pre-plan responses to various situations & others don't, or at least they don't micro-manage with an elaborate plan. A strength to a pre-planned response is that you'll probably respond as planned, at best; the drawbacks to a pre-planned response are:
(1) Can you & did you plan for every possible situation (I trust only the God can do that).
(2) You'll probably respond as planned; & if the situation changes/mutates, then will you be able to change? On a large scale, consider the Japanese "Bonzai" charges of WWII fame/infamy: the Japanese plan (if I may simplify it) was to charge with fixed bayonets en-masse; this was an awsome force to recon with & it worked very well for them on many occassions; but sometimes it didn't work; and rather than change strategy, another charge would be ordered; and another; sometimes the subsequent charges were successful, but often (with US Marine & US Army opponents) it ended in an entire Japanese unit being wiped out!
So, if you have a plan that doesn't work in a particular situation, will you TRY to make it work (to use force unnecessarily)? And will you have time to make a new "unbeatable" plan? Probably not (which means your entire unit, your body that is, may be wiped out). So what can you/should you TRY to do?
Well, learning & INTERNALIZING good PRINCIPALS of how to move your own body & how to manipulate anothers is perhaps BEST [a 2d best would be to learn some techniques of how to do both & hope that the principles would internalize & enlighten you somehow as to their existance (this can & does happen to some along the way, but it's quicker to first understand some principles & then practice with them in mind, internalizing them thru practice with focus) -- either way, you would need the principals &/or "(good) luck" to be able to adapt efficiently (= effectively) to varied & changing situations].
You can ATTACK WITHOUT MAKING THE FIRST MOVE (it's MOVE LAST ARRIVE FIRST). Your opponent had to make some move (some projection of harmul intent) for you to realize that he's an opponent (otherwise you're going to be taken by surprise -- and what could possibly be your pre-planned response to that???); so, your first move is in response to his -- make sure your "weapon" hits him before his "weapon" hits you. OK, a case in point to consider (a.k.a.: how I learned this lesson):
Having worked at a martial-arts supply store with its beau-coup contacts I discovered that there were some top martial artists teaching in my area (note: some top artists don't teach) & I had the good fortune to be accepted as a student by some of these instructors (note: Tim is one of them; also note that the following lesson I learned from another who is no longer teaching, but I learned it via Tim indirectly). Tim had taught me some "line exercises" (one of which was helping my back rehabilitate); they were really elaborate (down right convoluted) EXERCISES -- a key point as some exercises are more combat aplicable than others, & ones with combat application (such as these could very well have been) require knowledge of the application to be useful as such (note that I have used one of Tim's exercises in a street situation to good effect, but Tim had already enlightened me as to some of its combat uses; not so with these "line exercises" I was practicing in ignorance). I practiced every night in front of my abode (the sidewalk was my "line") for about a couple of weeks -- just long enough to begin a habit (keep this in mind). Then I went to practice with another instructor who ARRIVED FIRST with a fist in my face EVERYTIME; everytime I so much as twitched that is. Apparently due to most of those "line exercises" starting with a toe-out move my other instructor was keyed (alerted) to my intent (to put my "weapon" on him first) & so I ended up looking up close at a fist all freaking day (so it seemed) until he finally told me how he was doing it (note: the saving grace as I see it is that he also confessed that at one time he too had developed a simular bad habit & had since worked it out -- for the most part).
I had forgotten that exercising isn't fighting -- as Tim had already told me (& continues to remind me). Oops!
FOOTWORK IS IMPORTANT TO NOTICE -- after all, your opponent will sometimes use it to close the distance (sometimes an opponent is in a vehicle as one poor old man discovered recently just before he died: a 35-year-old woman intentionally decided to run him over twice, dragging him 30 feet thru the parking lot he was in before she parked & went shopping). NOT ALL OPPONENTS ARRIVE ON FOOT -- cavalry isn't really dead.
Don't drive yourself crazy with "sizing up." Some people become paranoid (well overly paranoid -- some paranoia is probably a healthy, helpful thing), that is, some see all as potential opponents & end up becoming fearful of living around others which makes the enjoyable experience of going out to dinner & a movie into one of constant fearful distraction. It also may distort your views on what constitutes an attack on your person (& so you end up labeled psycho artist rather than martial artist). Seek balance in more ways than one. {:o)

P.S.: (an example of a changing situation). A well-loved martial arts instructor in the Orange County (California) area was also a security guard. He & a couple of partners would often serve as security for popular bars & nightclubs in some rough-&-tough neighborhoods. I imagine that they had contingency PLANS for just about most typical situations -- but plans based upon teamwork. Well one night all his partners called in sick & the security-force supervisor was unavailable to help. He was alone. He struggled with & lost to a pistol-toting young man -- shot into the neck he bled to death without any backup. I believe that this wasn't any part of the original plan. So what happens if your arm is in a cast & a sling, or you're carrying your infant child (where's your pre-planned response then)? Can you improvise on the fly?
Things change, so if your going to TRY, then try not to plan -- DON'T PRE-PLAN HOW you're going to take someone down, just learn effective principals & put them into your practice & eventually you will internalize them & you will find an appropriate way on-the-fly when & as needed (an appropriate response to every action).

sometimes folks just need a little wake up call

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