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I went back to my collection and I found an article of the orientalist S.Pernatsch on the european magazine 'Samurai'.

The essay first explains the misunderstanding about the buddist origin of Ng Mui (Wu Mei): in those times all monks were called with the same word and this generated the mistake.

Then he reports an ancient chinese source, which I translate:

"Famous general of the Song dinasty, Ngok Fei (Yu Fei), created different martial arts. One was the Yue jia quan (Yue family boxing). This style spread in many areas, among which the taoist monks of the Emei mountains, where monks trasmitted it for generations. Two of the disciples who inherited the style were a taoist priest named Bai Mei and a nun called Wu Mei (Ng Mui). Bai Mei ended creating the style named after him, Bai Mei quan, while Wu Mei transmitted her art to people who named it Yong Chun (Wing Chun)quan."

p.s.
some serious researchers who know Yu Fei can here find remarkable source to trace back Xing Yi and Wing Chun to the same origin

That's wrong.

Period.

Don't believe everything you read. If you do, Micheal Jackson never had plastic surgery...

Idiot.

Illiterate coward.

Period.

Well, anyway........I suppose legends aren't necessarily untrue, although I believe the notion that Yueh Fei created Hsing-Yi is generally discounted today as myth by MA scholars. Interesting about Bai Mei (Pak Mei) as he is supposed to have learned his art from another taoist. The art that bears his name however, is heavily influenced by Lung Ying, a southern art that Cheung Lai Cheun, Pak Mei's only non-buddhist disciple (who gave the art of Pak Mei its name)was also highly proficient in. Your history would explain the Hsing-Yi type principles inherent in the higher levels of my art (a relative of Pak Mei Pai) however. These systems are supposedly a mixture of "taoist/shaolin". White Crane also claims Ng Mui as their originator, and if she existed, it is probably more likely that this was the case, and WC can trace its lineage to her as it is a mixture of crane and snake techniques.

On the subject of the connection between the IMA and Daoism, there is an excellent article on Sun Lu Tang by Brian Kennedy in this month's edition of "Classical Fighting Arts Magazine."

In the article, Brian goes into clear detail about the origins of the IMA/Daoist connection.

Tim,
Thanks for the good words. Those articles really are group efforts. In this case I started with the biography which was translated by one of the best translators around, which is you!

Then my wife Elizabeth helped out with translations of other material. And Mr. Liu (the owner of Lion Books) gave me the core idea; which was that Sun really was the main writer who set the idea of what internal martial arts was firmly in the Chinese public's mind. That in turn had a major influence on what modern day westerners think the internal Chinese martial arts are.

All I had to do was put it together and mail it to the magazine.


Thanks again,
Take care,
Brian

The only thing we know for sure is what happened after Yip Man.

And facts show that Leung Ting has always wanted to differentiate and elevate himself...

Dear Mr. Laport,
Styles are a waste of time and yet there not. All of us have had to study some sort of Style, this is only level one in understanding. Level two is the serious study of the five laws of motion: Up Down, Left Right, Forward Back, Open Close, Crossing.

In Xing Yi its called, The Five Elements Fist. Eliminate elements and fists and you have something. All those cycles of creation and destruction concerning all those elements, nice way of pulling the wool over everyones eyes. And fists are just spirals. Now we get to the cool stuff: Up is simply tuck under your hips and your body wants to go up. Go the opposite direction with your hips and your body goes down. Practice in a horse stance, bow stance, slide step, walking low, and you begin to transend styles and at the same time gain a health respect for all of them.

Left Right is a combination of Up Down and the pendular motion of your arms and legs. Add spiral motion and you have drilling. Hint a fist is really a spiral.

Forward Back is a combination of the afore mentioned two and elasticity. Stick your fist out in front you and move toward it, not the other way around. Stretch a rubber band let go of one point and the rubber band goes to the other point. Your body is the rubber band. This is also the nature of Fa long or short range.

Open Close is, of course, a combination of the three added with the opening and closing of your chest. Thus, creating inside to out circles or outside to in. This is also the study of the 18 joints.

Crossing this is the key to tactics and a combination of all the above. Direct attacking are sports, indirect is fighting. Crossing your opponents on coming attack at three points and capturing their back is the key to control.

Well that is the Five Laws.

Your Friend,
The Iron Bastard

What's the saying.... "The good (cool) stuff is hidden deep, the true gentleman of abundant virtues, appears like a silly fool". You didn't spell 'following' out loud neither.

Follow who, what? You!

Crossing is not apart from following, but you need to be able to differentiate the two.

Crossing the gap you build a bridge to the opponent, but how does the army cross? As an unorganised mass, or does the front (vanguard) lead and the main body (the flanks aren't important for the moment) and rear follow or does the rear urge the main and front. If the vanguard meets strong resistance does the whole army retreat in dissaray or does it retreat in an orderly manner, and again who leads and who follows?

Does the vanguard bridge agressively to engage the enemy with reckless clumsy force, to soften for the main body attack, or is it an invitation (feint) to draw the opponent out so as to be ambushed by a more devasting hidden force?

Also begs the question, whose giving the orders or possibly who's on first and what's on second?

i follow most of IB's post (and found it interesting--su?), but this dialogue is rapidly developing into the most impenetrable writing on
power and strategy i've ever read.

i *think* chris is talking about what happens in a cross: does the hand or center lead, what about following and adjustment, and is it real or a feint, and is there folding, etc.

but the following phrase reads like some oblique reference to sexual congress: "does the front (vanguard) lead and the main body (the flanks aren't important for the moment) and rear follow or does the rear urge the main and front".

front who, how? i'm not following.

well, i'm just being silly. seriously, i thought
IB's point about some things that *underlie* "style" was a good one.

i'd assume that following is one thing that happens leading into or following a cross, along with a lot of other things, and that IB was talking about the possibility of evolution of developmental tactics from a cross as opposed to simple direct attack.

but that's only if i'm following IB and chris...

thanks, gentlemen. best...

A novices question to the experts.

In Wing Chun the one inch punch is delivered with the three lower hand knuckles as the contact ie. little finger, ring finger and middle finger knuckles.

What are the contact points used in each of the five fists of Xing Yi? Particularly in the Sun Style.

Pi Quan (splitting) uses the open palm, or the bottom of the fist (a "hammer fist"). Normally, the big knuckles of the middle and ring fingers are used for Zhuan Quan (drilling), Beng Quan (crushing)and Pao Quan (pounding). Heng Quan (crossing) is not a punch, force transfers through the forearm.

hey tim, i am a disciple of li tailiang,i found it interesting that you say that heng chuan is not a punch, you are far more experienced than me, however we do use heng chuan as like a hook punch with the palm facing out hitting the temple with the top 2 knuckles.also we sometimes use pi quan as a fist, such as bouncing off an opponents arm from above,and punching in an upward motion to tghe jaw with tghe bottom knuckles.we also have a beng trhat goes upward? how do you figure?but in the end,it all works.

Beegs,
Interesting, I was taught to use Heng Quan as a horizontal "crossing" force that transfers from the hips through the rotating forearm. I've never seen Heng Quan used as you describe. I've also been taught (in the Shanxi systems) to use Pi Quan as a hammer fist.

As long as it works!

When i first learnt the five elements, i didn't practice a follow step except for Beng Quan. At that stage Heng Quan was basically all horizontal 'stretching' and 'tearing' with a little 'piercing' energy. After learming to follow step the character of Heng changed somewhat, the expanding and shrinking of the follow step adding rebound energy to give more emphasis to the piercing/drilling, so that it can be used as a punch. You can use the outward twisting of lead forearm to control an opponents arm by 'rolling' it under, then use the follow step to give a short sharp punch while still 'sticking' to him.

As i understand it, Li Tai Liang incorporates some Dai Family Xin Yi into his Shanxi Xing Yi Quan. This may account for the variation in his method of Heng. Dai family Xin Yi seems to be the flavour of the month in 'secret' power techniques like the squatting monkey. I don't know whether you can just add it into another system even a similar one, they seem to do alot of very specific training for years at a young age. Looks like a very extreme version of the pouncing type of energy found in other Xing/ Xin Yi systems.

Thanks Tim,

That is, thanks for your information that the main contact area are the big knuckles of the middle and ring finger. I understand big Knuckles to mean where the finger joins the hand.

It seems to me that when these two knuckles are used it would be difficult not to involve the large knuckle of the little finger also, making it a very similar striking contact area as the Wing Chun one inch punch. Do you agree?

One further question, I have been told that in the Sun Style Xing Yi, use is also made of a single bent finger knuckle as the contact area in their version of Wu Xing Quan. That is the knuckle half way down the finger. The index finger I think.
I would be pleased to have your comment on that due to your past association with the late Sun Jian Yun.

We try to avoid solid contact with the little finger knuckle (it's relatively easy to hurt, the common "boxer's fracture"). But the target area will make a big difference of course.

I never practiced Xingyiquan with the Sun's, so I can't comment on the way they strike with the Elements.