for any one who has trained in both systems the similarities are astounding!

Please spell them out. From what I have read of Hsing Yi I would think that the principles of movement would have been very diferent, although they may have appeared similar on the surface.

Maybe sometime in the distant past. I think "most" shotokan guys/teachers have lost the thought process that would allow them to figure out the different apps for the uchi? uke. Uchi is from outside to in...Maybe you mean Soto Uke.
There are some similarities, granted but astounding..hhmmmm.
Any good MA's will have analogous movements to any other MA. It is how you apply it that is the difference.

I heard that a platypus is related to a duck because of the bill.

wow Meynard gets deep....Yeeh! Not a bad analogy though

Mingmen some Karate systems say that inside block is out to in Shotokan starts inside an ends out (like heng chuan hence the comparison). Maybe the word astounding was misused but I initially started in the chinese systems in order to understand Karate better and after looking at various systems including Hung Kuen, Chow Gar, and Pak Mei I found Hsing Yi. The Shotokan Karateka will tell you that Uchi Uke as taught is pretty ineffective by the time you've chambered the hand to perform the block you have already been hit Hsing Yi gives me a whole new outlook as to how Karate blocking may work ie the act of chambering the hand may be the block and the block itself may be a counterstrike and that is a revelation to me. Just in case your wondering I have over 25 years experience in the martial arts although I admit only 6 years worth of Hsing Yi.
Meynard I hear we are related to chimps maybe you're living proof?

ouch!

Hi,
It's funny, my brother and I have been discussing this for quite some time ( he studies shotokan and I hsing i) and we've been trying to find people to talk to about this. Anyhoo, it seems that the general yang, super intent aggressive mindset is very similar in the ideas of never retreating and finding an angle and blasting through an opponent. As I mentioned in another thread, he and I do a pakua /hsing i excercise called rou shou together fairly often and it's very interesting to see how he adapts his shotokan to the excersise. Rou shou is kind of like push hands with more striking , joint locks and throws, etc.. available. Any similar experiences? Thanks, Josh

DOH!

Josh I have practiced Rou Shou and what I found difficult is Karate whilst having a very similar mind set to hsing yi also has a rigidity that hsing yi does not it therefore becomes difficult to take advantage of the subtle angles that rou shou practice presents. Again Karate suffers from the sporting element as the grappling techniques are lost to the practice of basic punches and kicks. I think Karateka can only benefit from this practice also Hsing Yi forms have allowed me to look at kata in a different light and see some very useful interpretations.

Some elements of Shotokan and various Okinawan systems have elements of push hands that are rearely taught today. Now most of its characteristics are punch/kick and its sad, but life goes on....
A Richard McCarthy and other pioneer who tracjked Okinawan karate from its various Crane systems even spoke to some CHinese descendants who taught the Okinawan masters. The Bubishi? I believe is the name of one source written by McCarthy.

Hi,
There does seem to be some rigidity in my brothers structure, but (and perhaps this is because of the teachers that he has had, or his personal theories about the way that shotokan works for him) I've noticed a surprising amount of sensitivity at touch as well as pretty intelligent use of angles in his rou shou and sparring which has helped me alot. Also, I've found that doing these excersizes have definitely helped me get more past some of the fear of getting hit hard (though he stays away from the face for some reason. We usually do some light boxing to get used to face shots). Also, his aggressive but calm fighting style can be very intimidating which has proved useful when dealing with people from other fighting styles (with the exception of Muay Thai guys or girls; those folks can give it out!!!)Anyway, thanks for writing back; it's very interesting to hear other thoughts on something that seems seldom discussed.Josh

It does sound as though your brother has a good insight into Shotokan the no face contact is a result of no contact sparring (light contact to the body pull short of the face) Here is a sparring method I used to enjoy from my shotokan practice we called it alley fighting you basically mark out a narrow strip of ground, we did this with belts, about 3 feet apart and you use these as your start positions once you began to spar you were not allowed to step out of the area we also allowed hair grabs and light face contact no groin or eye targeting. I found my Judo throws were invaluable.

A fellow from the UK, Nathan Johnson recently came out the main points of wingchun and various Okinawan systems (based on McCarthy search), The book is called Barefoot Buddhism or something like that.

(This is Josh's brothe-the Shotokan guy) I'm glad that someone mentioned McCarthy. He's done a lot in the way way of drawing correlations between Japanese open hand fighting to older Kung Fu systems. Anyhow, I find that the similarities of Shotokan to Hsing I lie in the positioning of the arms, namely in blocks. The "chambering" position. The intention, though, is different. Shotokan blocks(strikes, kicks, and thrusts) are designed so as to postion the body for a follow up (or "finishing") attack. The chambering of the arms in Hsing I seems to generally correspond to attacking, whereas in Shotokan, most chambering (obvious) is in defense. Any thoughts? (drewvogel@msn.com)

(This is Josh's brothe-the Shotokan guy) I'm glad that someone mentioned McCarthy. He's done a lot in the way way of drawing correlations between Japanese open hand fighting to older Kung Fu systems. Anyhow, I find that the similarities of Shotokan to Hsing I lie in the positioning of the arms, namely in blocks. The "chambering" position. The intention, though, is different. Shotokan blocks(strikes, kicks, and thrusts) are designed so as to postion the body for a follow up (or "finishing") attack. The chambering of the arms in Hsing I seems to generally correspond to attacking, whereas in Shotokan, most chambering (obvious) is in defense. Any thoughts? (drewvogel@msn.com)

Drew:
It's interesting you point out that difference. I've studied Shotokan as well as Hsing I and found what you say to be true. In Hsing I as well as in other styles of Kung Fu there's no "blocking" perse. There's only attack. Your arms redirect the opponets attack, but the main focus, is the attack. Sometimems the elbow may parry while the fist of the same arm hits. It's rare to find that in Shotokan. You may find it in an advanced player.
The way that Shotokan teaches how to react to an attack is in that 1-2 tyming (defense-attack) Most Kung Fu styles teach you from the beggining to do these to actions in one beat, dispensing with the "block" and simply attacking. The block takes care of itself.
What are your thoughts?

Heng Chuan is a form (albeit a very short one), while Uchi Uke, Ude Uke, Soto Uke, and Uchi Komi and so on are techniques. Heng Jing, the key principle in Heng Chuan, has a little in common with these at the surface level. However the meaning of Heng according to the Xing Yi classics is to control the opponent. Heng Jing appears in virtually every Xing Yi form, not just Heng Chuan. To compare one-to-one you'd have to say something more like "Heng Chuan is like Bassai Dai", though obviously not in length! Chalk and cheese.