Can someone explain an application for Turtle Form

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Can someone explain an application for Turtle Form
   By Anthony 1 (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 06:24 pm: Edit Post

I've been practicing the sun lu tang version of hsing-yi for a little while now and would love some one to throw some light on this form for me. It it could be a simple evasionary tactic or maybe an elbow attack mid-level I can't figure it out.


   By Tim on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 12:47 am: Edit Post

Which form are you talking about?


   By Anthony 1 (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 07:42 am: Edit Post

one of the twelve animals as taught to my instructor by Ji Jiang-Chen one arm seems to raise up to cover the head while the other stays mid level and moves with the waist as you step forward and out you can perform any number of steps and finish/change direction with a spin and a double low level strike.


   By Tim on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 01:21 pm: Edit Post

Why don't you ask your teacher about the move? If you can find out the form and name of the movement, others here might be able to give you some ideas as well.


   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 05:39 pm: Edit Post

I would guess the "mystery form" is the alligator form (tuo xing). What makes me think that is that "tuo xing" ends up tranlsated "oddly" sometimes and it might well end up getting translated as "turtle".

As to the combat applications I will leave that to the experts.

take care,
Brian


   By Anthony 1 (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 07:43 am: Edit Post

Thanks Brian


   By Mingmen on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
Isn't the turtle also called the water strider?

Is this a translation issue or something else?

Brian,
Are alligator and turtle pronounced similarly(in Chinese)?


   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit Post

Don't know about translations, but in english the water strider is an insect.


   By Mingmen on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit Post

That I am ok with. I actually think the movements of each are not disimilar. But that's just me!


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:46 am: Edit Post

Getting away from the topic of applications, but all the various names used; water strider, water lizard, Yantze alligator, turtle(?)... all share the characteristic of floating. Same as when you 'perform' the movements, you use alot of wrapping, binding or enclosing energy, gives a 'feeling' of center floating, not so much up and down.


   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:34 am: Edit Post

Andrea Falk makes an interesting observation in her translation of Li Tianji's xingyi book about alligator form. Ms. Falk writes: "find some old 'nature' show on t.v.-one that shows the alligator sliding up from the water to grab a wildebeast. Once the prey is in the alligators jaws it whips its whole body back and forth to snap the spine of the prey.

The force of this technique is the snap of the body, imagine your arms are the jaws so that you are not tempted to move them seperately".

One thing I like about Ms. Falk's translation is that she adds her own comments (as clearly seperated notes) to Li's book.

Of course Tim's translations still Rule, but her work is good too.

take care,
Brian


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 05:04 am: Edit Post

I would agree that the 'thrashing' and 'rolling' actions as well as 'twisting' and 'springing' actions of the alligator are useful metaphors for the 'outward' appearances.

However i thought the 'floating aspect' may be a less obvious reason (rather than errors in translation) as to why different names may be adopted. It also helps with the "not tempted to move them separately", as that is what wrapping basically entails, 'that which appears divided is really combined/united'.

Seems like a good book.


   By Tim on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:58 pm: Edit Post

Mingmen,
The proper name for the form is "Tuo Xing."

A "Tuo" is a kind of insect, a water strider or water skimmer. The image is that of moving the body from left to right with power from the waist that trasfers out the arms in arcs.


   By Dragonprawn on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:07 pm: Edit Post

Male water strider produce ripples on ponds to attract females. Female water striders preferentially mate with males that give off "good vibrations"!


   By internalenthusiast (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit Post

some applications from water strider form from Su Dong Chen.

http://evolutionary-systems.com/html_docs/video.html

best...


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:46 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, interesting site. One short demo clip doesn't prove much, but i thought it was more 'slant flying' than anything. I'd also be pretty wary of crossing by way of a horse stance, when my opponent's lead foot (in San ti)is deep in my guard. Also again i realise it's just a demo, but a 'passive' opponent rely negates the importance of 'following' in crossing, i.e. that when you seek to create openings in the opponent's guard, you are careful not provide unintended openings for him.


   By internalenthusiast (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit Post

hi, chris,

of course i understand the relevance of your comments, all round. and i think the demo was more to illustrate possibilities than be a realistic exchange. but su dong chen is, IMO, a world class practitioner. i don't very often make recommendations, but i'd suggest anyone interested, of whatever level, "taste his flavors"--there's as much spice as one can handle.

all best...


   By internalenthusiast (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:24 pm: Edit Post

btw: thanks, chris for making me look at the clip more closely. my understanding would be that the horse stance crossing you mention would be closer to cloud hands. i.e., he's compromised the opponent by leading him to the right, as he steps left--so the vector is already diverted.
in any case, thanks...


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