Xingyi straight sword hand?

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Xingyi straight sword hand?
   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 05:40 am: Edit Post

There was some discussion awhile back on the tassels on tai chi swords, I have another sword question.

In the xingyi straight sword set (at least the one I am teaching myself off the dvd) the hand not griping the sword is usually formed into what I have come to call the "tai-chi sword hand" (i.e. index and middle finger held together and straight, the thumb touching the ring finger and the pinkie curled up next to the ring finger).

This tai-chi sword hand, at least in the xingyi 5 Elements sword set, generally sticks right to the wrist of the sword bearing hand, usually draped over the wrist.

Now the question. Why?

From a bio-mechanics standpoint I feel a lot stronger in the sword bearing hand if I would just take the other hand, dispense with the "cool tai chi hand formation" and just use the off hand to support my sword bearing hand by wrapping the first two fingers around the opposite hand's wrist.

Actually if you had just handed me a Chinese straight sword and I had never seen any dvds, sword demos or books about it, my natural reaction would be to grip the butt of the sword with my off hand.

So what is the reason for the "tai-chi sword hand"? I should mention that I have heard some idea that it has to do with "directing the chi here and there and everywhere"....umm, is there another reason.

Take care,
Brian


   By scott franks (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 06:38 am: Edit Post

I was taught it was intention and body alignment. The "extra" hand usually comes in conjunction with thrusting or cutting actions. It trains you to bring the yin side of the body into play. It's feels very similar to the double hand strokes in the Filipino stick arts.

scott


   By N Shaolin (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 08:17 am: Edit Post

In the Northern Shaolin the 'sword shape' hand is also usually on the wrist of the sword-bearing hand.

There are a few reasons for this that I can think of:

1) Esthetically it looks neater. Not much of a reason, but if you're doing the form to show somebody important then you want to look 'good' not sloppy.

2) Keeping the sword shape reduces the risk of you getting your fingers cut off in combat - now this is a much more practical reason! Smaller target area.

3) You can use the sword shape hand to 'stab' vital points/ vunerable areas on the opponent, like the neck. These sorts of strikes are more in keeping with the 'feel' of the sword form, since the straight sword is not a hack and slash weapon (it would break in half if you did that with it) but instead requires great subtlety.

4) Placing the sword shape hand on the wrist of the weapon-bearing hand supports the wrist, giving it extra strength for some of the moves - for instance you can 'whip' the sword round in a vertical circle (start with it bent back towards you then whip it and strike forward) much faster and with more accuracy/power if you support your wrist as you do it. In the Northern Shaolin the none-weapon bearing hand does a lot of this - in fact it almost does as much work as the weapon bearing hand.

Of course, this is all Northern Shaolin, which is external and therefore supposedly inferior to Tai Chi :0)) , but I'd hazard a guess that the Tai Chi form uses the same sword shape hand for exactly the same reasons.

Oh, and of course there's - 'directing the chi' how silly of me to forget that absolutely essential reason.... :0))


   By The Wong (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 05:29 pm: Edit Post

What Erle Montaigue says about the "Sword Fingers" hand is that it was originally meant to hold a short knife.


   By Bob #2 on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 06:21 pm: Edit Post

what does Erle say is the logic behind using the fingers instead of a sharpened metal blade?

I love that guys wacky ideas.


   By Brian Kennedy on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit Post

Earl the Squirrel strikes again. Umm, I have come to the conclusion that the reason for the weird hand shape is two-fold:
1. Looks cool
2. It is a holdover from the Chinese opera where that same hand formation (two fingers extended, thumb touching ring finger and pinkie) is used a lot.

I also came to the same conclusion regarding the tassels on both straight swords and sabers; they look cool and they are a holdover from the chinese opera.

In either case there is, at least as far as I can see, no martial or bio-mechanical reason for it.

In a related but completely unrelated question; why did the Chinese in the Republican period tie a string between their (very cool) "broomhandle" Mauser pistols and their belts? Were they afraid of "forgetting" their pistol at some bar or brothel so they tied a string to it? Or to prevent local hoodlums or mean foreign devils from stealing their Mausers?

Oh, I should mention the "tie the pistol to the belt" routine is not just in the Shaw Brothers movies, I have seen "real" photos in gun magazines where they do it.

take care,
Brian the Gunslinger


   By C. Fritz Froehlich on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 10:45 pm: Edit Post

Hi all,

In refference to the following:

"I also came to the same conclusion regarding the tassels on both straight swords and sabers; they look cool and they are a holdover from the chinese opera.

In either case there is, at least as far as I can see, no martial or bio-mechanical reason for it."

In European saber technique even as recently as WW1 the Saber was tied to the wrist with a cord. This is to prevent the saber when droped to be compleatly lost. Having fenced saber in college I can see the need for this. When a full weighted saber is hit by another it could be dislodged. Especially if you are on a charging horse. This also can come into effect if your hand is covered in your opponents blood.

I have found a reference in an interesting book on Asian fencing called "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Aikido and Weapons Training" to the use of the tassel. The Chinese Author Lujian Xing, gives the same reasons for the tassel. It is not a weapon or a flashy ellement of the form, but a way of keeping the sword close to your hand even if you drop it. Having tried this, with form and in simulated combat a simple strip of cloth is easier to use than the bulky tassel.

This book is worth a look. I am not fully conversant with the Japanese weapons, but I am skeptical on their functionallity. How ever the Chinese straight sword material is very similar to the western fencing books being translated and distributed by the ARMA people.

I am curious as to the functionallity of the forms we have learned. Do they teach dance or combative combinations. At least they teach how to move with a weapon in your hands.

On a further note the same rational is used for the Pistol tied to the wrist or the waist. It was standard practice in the late 19th century and early 20th century British army to tie the pistol to a lanyard that hung from the waist or from around the neck.

There is my two cents worth,
Fritz


   By Edward Hines (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 07:27 am: Edit Post

My thoughts on fencing,

most Chinese style sword forms are effectively dances because the majority of people practising and teaching them really don't know much about sword combat, and probably haven't for several generations.

Not that I can claim to know much.

I think the folk at ARMA do practical research, like seeing what works against resisting opponents will probabaly have a better understanding of Chinese sword forms than most Chinese martial artists.

it's not rocket science, it's not immortals on clouds, it's fighting.


   By wonderer (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:37 am: Edit Post

Good answer Northern Shaolin. I was taught similar info. Tassle exercises force one to concentrate their yi and allow energy to flow.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 02:23 pm: Edit Post

Erle Montaigue says the same thing as many other internal teachers about the "sword-amulet" shape (jianque). It was meant in part to provide physical balance of feel in the empty hand to match the hand holding the sword; it was also meant to re-circulate the qi in the empty hand to balance the internal energy flow; and it could be used under certain martial circumstances to strike vulnerable parts of the attacker's anatomy. He is in the minority when he says that it really represented a way of carrying a small knife in the other hand that could be "flicked-out" for a surprise attack; however, I have been told this by one or two Chinese practitioners over the years as well so some practitioners may have trained in this way in the past.

By the way, knowing Erle personally, let me say in passing to Brian that Erle wouldn't insult someone he doesn't know on a discussion board or resort to needless name-calling.

It is important to remember that sword fighting was often done at close range where such attacks might work if your technique/skill levels were much better than your opponent (or if you caught them by surprise).

A cursory look at the history of Chinese "hidden weapons" -- Yang Jwing-ming wrote one such book some years ago -- will show you that there are many precedents for small/eccentric weapons in China and elswhere.

Rather like the famous derringer revolvers of the old American west, some of which were built into bracellets that could be worn around the wrist or in a belt buckle and fired by pulling a hidden wire.


   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit Post

The reason I mock people like Earl the Squirrel and his ilk (i.e. people like Biff Painter, James Lacy and Yang Jwing Ming ) is because it is people like that that make me embarrassed to tell other adult professionals that I study Chinese martial arts.

With their shinny Qing era costumes, their childish talk of "secret Chinese ninja concealed weapons", spinning circles of chi which flow up their ass and out their hands and their versions of Chinese martial arts history which come directly out of Shaw Brothers movies; they are, in the words of Jim Kelly, "something straight out of a comic book".

I dislike those types of people and I mock them when I can. And the reason for it is the public image they project and the nonsense they spread.

The public picks up that image and then when I tell people I practice Chinese martial arts what they think (as they laugh to themselves) is "oh, you do the same thing as Earl the Kung Fu Master, a kind of role play game like Dungeons and Dragons, where you pretend you are a Chinese ninja who uses chi balls to give coconuts the delayed death touch".

Thus my distaste for those people.

Now I fully realize that Biff Painter, Earl the Squirrel or any of the other clowns may well be able to kick my ass. The list of people on this planet who could kick my ass is long. But that is irrelevant to the fact that they trivialize Chinese martial arts and turn it into something that adults are embarrassed to say they participate in.

So that is the answer as to why. I should close on a mildly positive note, on a personal level all these people, Earl the Squirrel, Dr. Biff, Jim the Coconut Buster; maybe fine people but it is the damage they do to the Chinese martial every time they appear in a magazine or on a television show that causes my wrath. At 45 years of age I am just so tired of the nonsense.

Brian


   By internalenthusiast on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 09:20 pm: Edit Post

hi brian,

well, if i have a strength, it certainly isn't sword of any kind, so please take my thought with the requisite shaker of salt. but what you wrote in your query made me think of something--perhaps already obvious, maybe not.

first, is the yin hand formation actually a way of retaining a focus in that hand that strengthens tendon connection through torso, and to the active hand? what i mean is that generally if you are striking with one hand, you don't want the other to go dead...you still extend/shape, etc. which maintains whole body connection, however one wants to define it.

second, while i don't know the form you are talking about, as i visualize what you write, one hand is supporting the other? the relation of the two hands is coordinated in what might loosely correspond to "press"? and the best two handed presses have the fingers of the "pressing" hand extended?

i realize i'm kind of mixing two arguments/points: one about yin hand and one about press, where the pressing hand is quite active...but, if i follow you, the two handed grip you describe as an alternate possibility (like you'd have on an english broadsword) doesn't make use of the tendon connections, or the "press" energy in the same way? it would be a whole body whipping/chopping action, but not include press (in the yang cycle), or the "tightness of circle" (in the yin cycle) that the mechanics of the particular form you describe would allow?

anyway, i may not be visualizing at all correctly what you are describing--if it makes some sense to you great; if not pass it off as a misapprehension. best...




   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 11:02 pm: Edit Post

Brian;
I trust that you have met all four of the teachers you just condemned?
You're entitled to your opinion (and I agree with your opinion of two of them) but you cheapen your words, in my view, by name calling -- especially if you have never met the person you are criticizing.


   By Dragonprawn on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:23 am: Edit Post

I once heard that sword finger served to check the pulse on the wrist of the sword hand. Sounds unlikely & "chihuggerish" though. Has anyone elese heard that?


   By Edward Hines (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 08:05 am: Edit Post

very interesting, presumably so that you can notice how your life blood ebbs away as an opponent who actually knows how to fight cuts you to ribbons.


   By Meynard on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

Good one Ed!


   By MysticSouljah (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit Post

I agree with Michael that name calling cheapens one's point of view and I would add that it compromises one's integrity. Nevertheless, when you make countless videos and promote yourself and your methods worldwide through various media formats, you open yourself up to be both tested and critiqued. Ultimately, truth is simply a matter of expressing yourself honestly. Philosophic speculation and poetic theorizing can be entertaining but the proof is in the pudding. It is important to know when to speak and when to keep silent.


   By Justin Harris1976 (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit Post

The Taiji hand in the sword forms may have little martial significance unless the fingers are in some way trained. (Stuart Olson mentions this training as well as the Tassel's use in his book on Taiji sword form) The position of the hand with the index and middle fingers extended and the ring finger and pinky touching the thumb is probably derived from the concept of mudras or mystically significant hand positions used in meditative practices throughout the east and in ancient and medieval religious art (Byzantine artists often picture Jesus with this hand posture) Whatever the source of this hand position it is important to the cultural context of Taijiquan as an art deriving from a mix of Daoism, Buddhism, and indigenous Shamanic practices of the the prehistoric Chinese.


   By The Iron Bastard on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 06:18 pm: Edit Post

Wow! Maybe you should read some more Joesph Campbell.


   By Justin Harris1976 (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:18 am: Edit Post

Campbell is good. More people should read his work. Thomas Cleary is also fun. Can't forget Joseph Needham either.


   By BAI HE (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:09 pm: Edit Post

If you ever have the chance find the PBS documentary with Joseph Campbell. He's pretty amazing between the ears, but I'm not afraid of his Gung-Fu.

Seriously, check it out sometime. Great stuff.


   By Tim on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit Post

Campbell's "The Masks of God" books are also excellent.


   By wang lang (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:20 am: Edit Post

i heard the tassles used to have big brass balls attached to them so if the blade misses you the balls won't...


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 09:17 am: Edit Post

Brass balls on tassels of any length would be likely to act like bolos (South American weapons used for hunting) and get entangled on the opponent's arms and/or weapons. This is almost as dangerous for the wielder as it is for the target and sounds like the kind of rumour that got started in martial arts movies and not on the battlefield.


   By Pess (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 05:42 pm: Edit Post

There are radicals in every large system. Islam has it's radicals, christianity theirs. And if a veneer of slight distaste is all it takes to scare you away, then maybe you should go. They have a right to practice their way, you have a right to practice yours.


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