Eight Character Secret

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Eight Character Secret
   By RM (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
In your Nei Gong book you mention the eight character secret. Some of the characters are more obvious than others. Can you elborate on Wave, Lead and Uplift? I realize the definition of these words may be broad. In Joseph Crandall's translation of Li Cunyi's xingyi there are very different characters. Are these different branches of xing yi or different translations?

thanks,
Robert Mathers


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 03:42 am: Edit Post

Tim, got a similar question about the character for Guo (wrapping) in the three fists and 'wrapping' (no part exposed)in the 'seven key points'. And Heng (Crossing) in the five fists and 'crossing' in the seven key points.


   By Tim on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit Post

Robert,
"Wave" refers to the side to side movement of the steps and body (imagine a swimming alligator). "Lead" is the action of pulling the opponent's arm (usually at the wrist). "Uplift" is pushing or supporting from below, usually under the opponent's elbow or armpit to raise his center and tip him off balance.

Chris,
"Guo" usually refers to the inward twisting motion of Heng Quan. The "no part is exposed" is a reference to crossing the opponent's arms or surrounding his body so he is controlled (like wrapping up a package tightly). "Crossing" in the Five Element Fists refers to the actions of the form, in the Seven Key Points it is a reference to controlling the opponent as discussed above.


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:09 pm: Edit Post

Tim, what you describe is the way i had basically understood it, but there are also a couple of other variants.

Wrapping as an outside in movement (like with the arm in Heng and water strider) but also with the lower body; either withdrawing the lead foot back to dragon body stance, or bringing the rear foot forward as in chicken step and really sinking/storing energy on the 'static' leg and 'dropping' the shoulder a little, ready to issue power, i.e. contracting ready to expand out Jian (scissor step inside out) and up (Drilling/Zuan). In this case the no part exposed i believe refers to your own structure, in moving nothing gets 'left behind' and your are binding yourself up ready to release ('cut the ribbon'). I think i have also seen this referred to as bear/eagle.

Crossing referring to crossing the opponent at three points; hand, nose (centre-line), and foot. Lead hand and foot cross opponent's and open a path for your rear hand and foot to follow, working to and fro to control through the centre-line/plane. Heng has this quality maybe more obviously, but so do the other elements.

I was wondering whether these techniques or concepts, have different characters in the different contexts (passages), which may suggest whether it is fundamentally a qualitative or quantitative difference. Some respected people are seeking to strictly define them as individual technique only or as a whole conceptual principle of movement, and i don't know whether that is a correct path or not. Personally i think both are correct and it is more of a qualitative difference ( more flexible interpretation) which changes according to context; the old story again; individual style, level of training, etc.

Your opinion would be much valued thank you.


   By internalenthusiast (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:11 pm: Edit Post

thanks, tim for your great verbal explanations.

i do tcc, not hsing i but: i am imagining "wave" as in wave hands, or ward off. is it in essence the same outward circling of hands? lift seems like peng (upward energy as in the blocking hand of fair lady); and "guo" like inward circling like the yin hand in brush knee, or the front hand in rollback, for instance.

my apologies if i'm being thick. i'm just trying to visualize these terms and find tcc counterparts.

thanks so much...


   By Tim on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 12:49 pm: Edit Post

Chris,
I agree with you, more often than not, when it comes to describing IMA, the Chinese will use the same terms sometimes in a conceptual context and sometimes in a specific (technical) context.

Internalenthusiast
Right, the movements described are similar to the forms you mention.


   By Chris Seaby (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 09:45 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Tim, i won't your use your name in vain, but it will give me extra confidence to continue my own course, even if goes against the grain a little.

I get a little tired at times of your students continually extolling your 'virtues', but i guess it is a reflection of the very high esteem that they hold you in. I hope one day to be able to express my gratitude (in person), for answering all my questions ... thanks.


   By Tim on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:02 pm: Edit Post

You're welcome anytime Chris.


   By internalenthusiast (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:53 am: Edit Post

thanks, Tim.


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