I agree specificity is ideal, but if you are doing "traditional" strength building exercises for "general" strength building it has been my experience that those methods are inferior to modern methods and practices. I do not know enough about strength training via Xingyi's traditional methods to comment on their purpose. I was making the point that properly executed "modern" strength training will not slow you down and will not hinder your range of motion if done correctly. If it does you are doing something incorrectly. The notion that strength training makes you slow and tight (not flexible) is hogwash.

Also, Charles Poliquin does a seminar on swiss ball training and flexibility. Of all of his seminars that is the one that I would take if martial arts and training were my top priority. He has some unique methods of flexibility training incorporating the swiss ball. As an example of it's effectiveness, we started the day my all doing the good 'ole sit and reach to determine a baseline of flexibility. I could get my wrists to my toes. Over the course of the day we did different stretches and also various strength building exercises on the swiss balls. At the end of the day I checked my flexibility again and could then get my elbow to my toes.

He is definitely worth checking out. It's more than marketing. Would you pay someone $400/hour if they didn't deliver? I wouldn't

If I could get my elbows to my toes, I would not leave my house....

I think the notion of inflexibility and lack of speed etc, stems from the bodybuilding craze of the 70's and 80's, not weightlifting/training per se, which again relates to training for different purposes.

Yeh swiss ball exercises are great for flexibilty, whole body strength and balance, with a fairly low degree of skill level required, unlike olmpic lifting, one arm lifts, kettlebells etc which require a medium to high level of skill/co -ordination to perform correctly. However, how well these skills transfer to Xing yi is again open to question, particularly referring to the motor skills aspects.

If you are talking general motor skill developement and performance with wide applications (transferrable), then i would agree that the methods you talk about are superior, but not when we are talking specifically about Xing Yi motor developement/performance skills. Traditional methods are much more efficient because of that rule of specificity, they are designed specifically for Xing Yi.

As an example the flexibility training you mention, may not be efficient from a Xing Yi point of view if the increased range of motion is unnecessary i.e. beyond the normal range of motion required, more isn't always better.

Oh yeah, it may help if you are 'forced' to go way beyond that normal range of motion thus lessening or preventing injury, though the nature of the art is such, that i don't believe such injuries are common. By nature i mean how 'force' is 'produced' and 'received'.

TIM or anyone, I would like more info about the number and type of students in the classes you attended in China. Men and women? Old and young? Were most other people also training four times a week? Did most students focus only on xing yi, or were they involved in other int/ext training? I am in a five-person class here in Japan, and don't have much to compare against. Also, would the typical class in the US/Canada/ etc. have about the same makeup or differ?

I think Mr. Seaby is nailing some of this on the head. I highly recommend referencing Charles Staley's work at myodynamics.com . He has written an excellent book entitled "The Science of Martial Arts Training" . I respect him a great deal, b/c he is not caught up in the Bullshit that plagues fields of study like Martial Arts or Fitness/Exercise. Many are looking for an instant fix, a pill, and I never trust anyone who says they have one. A reason that I respect Tim's approach. The truth is that almost every sport has athletes that have broken existing records or plateaus with the use of weight training and plyometrics and other modern strength training techniques. Specificity is very important, but even Tim said earlier, STRONGER is BETTER. Look at the basics. DEADLIFTING, SQUATTING, and olympics like Clean and Jerk. YES, you'll have to learn some new skills. But, you will become capable of soooooooooooooooooooooooo much more. I used to have knee problems, but after 18 months of weight training, I can squat 250lbs, keeping my kneecaps behind my toes, in perfect form, so deep that my butt almost touches the ground. I don't look like a power-lifter. I am 5'10" and 160lbs. I'm not some steroid driven bull. These lifts will make you stronger, and the Clean and Jerk will teach you how to explosively lift weights you never thought possible over your head (body-integration, use your legs to creat force thru your arms???? Martial Arts application????) Watch the olympics. These little bastards throw all kinds of obscene weight around. I don't care what kind of Martial Arts training they have, I would not piss them off! Look at college wrestlers. Try to tell any of them or their coach that their weight training is SLOWING THEM DOWN, or INTERFERING with their techniques. If you can say that you have your head up your ass, and no respect for anyhting beyond the little fence you put up around your Tai Chi or Hsing I. It would be ignorant. And I still have yet to see a Tai Chi fighter in the UFC, K1 or anything else. That's my take. Check out Staley, he's the man.

Martial "Artists" are disillusioned with the weight room, b/c they try to mimic body-builders. They should endeavor to train like strength/power athletes. Watch how a Shot-Putter trains, and then read MUSCLE MEDIA, and you'll understand what I mean.

stronger is better. Many of you are intelligent people. Be technically proficient and strong.

Thanks! Jason

Olympic lifts can teach you about the importance of execution of technique, whole body co-ordination and integration, maintaining alignment under pressure...., however the ability to accelerate and de-accelerate a stationary weight/load from the floor to a point a metre or so above the floor through a vertical plane has little to do with martial arts skill. Success in something is not just about what you are prepared to do to suceed, but also what you are prepared to give up.

Bryan,
The ages and frequency of training for students in China varies depending on the type of martial arts taught and the focus of the school or group.

Zillions of people (mainly middle aged and older) of both sexes practice Taijiquan for health (usually training is limited to a modified, easy to practice form).

Xingyiquan more often than not attracts a younger, primarily male group. In the schools that actively participate in fighting competitions, this is even more the case. Most students that fight will cross train or practice San Da/San Shou as well.

Chris, in the book "72 Consummate Arts of Shaolin", there is an exercise called the Frog which seems to be a heavy barbell clean-and-press.

Kenneth, i haven't had anything to do with Shaolin and had little to do with 'Southern' style martial arts in general, save a little Mantis, so my comments should have the caveat of being interpreted in respect of 'Northern' Styles particularly Northern IMA. The general distinction as i see it, lies in different Shen Fa (body method) and Bu Fa (foot/stepping methods) and associated 'power' generation.

With regards to my training and 'weight' training, i have a 'strong' background in it, as do my father (nationally ranked powerlifter till he did his back) and grandfather. Anyone familiar with the 'strength' scene will know that there are as many varied opinions, fads, cults etc as in martial arts, so i'm not interested in a 'been there done that' discussion.

I'd sum up the similarities between Northern IMA and Olympic weight lifting by saying that, trying to 'MUSCLE a technique' would be equally frowned upon by a coach in both, but the transfer of skills between the two with someone operating at this level of intent or focus (as well as skill) would be rather minimal, apart from general strength and conditioning (if you do circuits or high reps).

I do five element spear/pole training as my main 'power' excercise because there is a 'direct' relationship between this 'mirror' exercise and the rest of my training and is thus a much more efficient allocation of my time. If however Xing yi was just one of number of activities/sport/hobbies that i engaged in then a more 'general' strength/power program would be appropriate. I loved weighlifting but i love Xing Yi more.

Actually, Chris, there are a couple of styles of southern mantis and crane with IMA type body dynamics. However, it was just food for thought. I'm sure that among all the legendary MA figures of yesterday were scores of wannabes who never made a name for themselves due to back injuries, damaged joints, etc. resulting from severe workouts. I practice a single-ended staff form for the same reason that you practice your spear form. Sounds like you are pretty advanced in your IMA so you probably don't need the weight training, but when I was starting out, I found weight training beneficial for conditioning the muscles around my joints to take the stress of emitting jing as I was one of those who hadn't really worked out regularly before starting my MA training and my knees in particular were bad from doing a lot of TKD as a child.

Getting off topic, but i agree that the distinction between Northern and Southern systems (like internal and external) is not mutually exclusive, but at the same time it is more than a geographic distinction. Again to sum up the difference in a few words 'springy legs' open extended postures.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Xing yi has conditioning exercises for beginners that prepare them for the rigours ahead, but at the same time train alignments and mechanics of movement that make Xing yi, Xing Yi. To me this makes more sense from a time and practicality point of view. Obviously like the spear training because this has a direct relationship to other aspects if you do it 'correctly' it has a positive effect elsewhere, badly....

The other thing i believe is misunderstood and underestimated is the role of intent or will. Xing Yi has a whole range of mental images or visualisations to help incorporate this function or unify this apect (form with mind/will), done whilst standing still initially, to make the transition easier. When you cross with an opponent your form must be unbroken and likewise your will/intent, to leave no gaps or openings for the opponent to take advantage of. Good lifters have the same type of focus and intent, a lapse, and a close to 'limit' weight will inevitably come crashing down. This aspect i think is most similiar and most transferable.

On quick reflection i guess what i am saying in the last part is that as you progress in an activity the motor skills aspects become more specialised, but the mental aspects of success become similiar.

hi, chris,

i don't know enough about hsing i to comment; but i found your last statement thought-provoking. as a teacher, i'm always trying to find cross-disciplinary comparisons; and your thought above makes sense to me. music and MA have really important concepts/images in common, though the motor skills may not be similar. maybe it comes down to "arts/skills" having deep/archetypal relations, even when the "techniques/attributes" are not closely related.

anyway this is in a way off topic, so i better quit (and apologize). but thanks for a thought provoking observation. best...

Different people use the same words to mean different things. Tong enforcers and Sikh warriros use "traditional" methods of training, and with their serious intent are no doubt highly lethal. I think (and believe this is what Chris might have meant) that this serious intent is what separates martial artists from the hobbyists and weekend warriors.

Or, from our point of view, the better you get, the harder it is to get even better, but if you want it, you are most focused.

Thank you both for your comments, both points are true from the general perspective. People who have reached the top of seemingly diverse disciplines appear to have a 'bond' or connection that is beyond words or images, and share alot of psychological traits (debate as to whether inherited or learned). Also by neccessity they have a serious and focussed intent towards their 'work', but also can be quite light-hearted as well. I think because they are less worried about appearances and have identified what is important and what is not. However while both of these examples may be part of the end outcome of the Unification (fusion) of Form and Will in Xing Yi, the process is different (indirect vs direct).

there's a book, called i believe, Mastery, which includes interviews from masters of various arts/fields, and makes some similar observations on the essence of "mastery". best...

Anyway, though "stronger is better" is so basic as to not even warrant an argument, in Taijutsu, we used to try to stress skill to beat a stronger enemy with proper angling and efficient body mechanics, or a faster enemy with good timing and distancing. Somewhere on these posts Tim, in stressing the importance of good technique, mentions winning a match against an opponent who had a 55 or 65 pound weight advantage over him.

But strength is related to function/goal, and also varies with the situation. Strength in one position connotates weakness in another. Since MMA's for example have evovled in a largely combat sport environment, with rules imposing limitations, a bias has resulted which favours athleticism and particular styles. If you pick up a weakness in an opponent you might not be able to take advantage of it becasue it breaks the rules. You may also worry less about trying to hide your own and exploit others weaknesses because it isn't much of a secret, even more so when you can watch videos of opponents etc.

If there were no limits/rules on techniques and strike zones, and no weight classes (forcing smaller lighter fighters to take on larger heavier ones) you would probably see more variety in forms, styles and techniques and more emphasis on strength that is skills based and adaptable to different/variety situations (environments) and opponents. Xing Yi does that very well (that last sentence might keep me on topic sort of).