I don't know if you'd call it a "club", but I've been to a few illegal fights. Actual "ground" fighting rarely occurred (though it did), but clinches almost always happened. I watched some of those early UFCs, I remember a huge guy who claimed okinawan karate and beat the crap out of people with vertical punches in a rather brawler-like fashion, is that "Tank"? Your points are well taken, Tim.

Tim's post above is the most direct, accurate, honest and succinct discussion of "real fights" that I have ever heard.

It should be made into a book, the book will have a nice binding, cool cover and one page..with those truisms on it.

When I think back on all the thousands of pages of nonsense b.s. I have read over the past 25 years about fighting, "real fighting", street self defense, "ultimate" martial arts and all the rest...Tim's statement reminds me that in fact it all is quite straightforward and (in a sense) there is not much mystery about the bottom line of fighting.

You do good work Mr. Cartmell.

take care,
Brian

Tim,

I'd be interested to know how you marry your post with the words of the Treaste...

"There are many boxing arts.

Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.

The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.

[snip]

The spectacle of an old person defeating a group of young people,
how can it be due to swiftness? "

Is that what you meant by the technically superior fighter?

Chris,
I don't know how many martial artists ever become involved in "life or death" street fights, but presently, every fighter in UFC-like tournaments is a trained martial artist. At the highest levels, many are also world class athletes. Not only are the participants in MMA martial artists, they are some of the truly "real" martial artists around (martial artists that actually fight).

Rumbrae,
Brawlers now represent zero percent of MMA fighters, they simply cannot compete with the new breed of crossed-trained martial artists.

I've been to two "underground" fights. The level of ability among the fighters was considerably lower than the MMA pros of course, but the same basic patters of fighting occured.

Kenneth,
No Okinawan Karate for Tank. He wrestled in school, but street brawling was his "style."

Thanks Brian,
How much do you think a one page book would sell for?

None,
If you want to see some real world examples of the superiority of "techniques" in the passage you quoted, you should watch the first few UFC's (surprise) and pay close attention to Royce Gracie's fights.

He was much smaller, weaker and slower than all of his opponent's, and he won the event three times (we'll have to wait a few years to see if he can still do it when he's an "old person").

Do you have any other real world examples?

Tim,

Did you get to see Sunday's Pride Fighting Grand Prix?

If so does it represent a "changing of the guard so to speak in that the grapplers were not having a good time of it?

But like you say above if the stand up fighter is good at ground defense and/or much stronger this would be an advantage. Is this the new trend?

Finding themselves in the guard of the other guy did not seem to pose many problems as some of them stayed there rather comfortably geeting off a few good shot before merely picking the grappler up & slamming them.

I think mixed martial artists are always experimenting to stay one step ahead so I wonder what they will be emphasizing in the weeks and months of training to come in light of what they saw in Pride 2003.

Tim,

Real world examples.... let me see, What about Wang Xiang Zhai?

If you look at pictures of him he was very small and skinny, but he beat up pretty much everybody else.

I doubt in this day and age that any of us have been in enough real fights to be all-knowing as we see what we want to see, but though we tend to be paranoid about being beaten by the proverbial "streetfighter", most of us on the other hand have probably also seen trained fighters thrash streetscum used to intimidating the timid, now that I think about it.

Tim, I just remember some huge blonde karate guy who brawled, there was some other huge dark-haired guy who brawled, and some huge hawaiian guy who brawled when he wasn't dragging some giant wooden cross around. These seemed to pretty much dominate everyone except Royce. You're right, he was so much smaller, yet won most of the time, though once he threw in the towel before a match because he had broken a knuckle on someone's head in a previous match. There was a taijutsu cop who won one year and a thai boxer who got the crap kicked out of him by some huge brawler, lol!

Here's an interesting question:

If your aim is to compete in the next UFC then is training in an 'internal' art a complete waste of time?

Dragonprawn,
I saw the Pride (great show). Right, like we discussed above, good stand up strikers win as often as ground fight specialists provided they have good takedown and ground defenses.

The fight you were referring to was between Ricco Rodriguez and Nogueria. Ricco defended so well in the guard because his background is in wrestling (he's primarily a grappler as well).

Heavy hitters like Silva and Crocop prefer to stay on their feet but have excellent basic wrestilng skills (allowing them to stay on their feet).

Bustamante (a BJJ black belt who prefers the ground fight) has excellent boxing skills.

Modern MMA fighters will specialize in one of the three areas of fighting, but they are always proficient enough in the other two to try and keep the fight where they want it. All are examples of the necessity of being well rounded fighters.

None,
It depends who you train with, and how you train. Professional fighters in MMA events are only going to practice arts proven in realistic competition. So far, no one that practices what most people consider "Internal" arts has won any fights.

Tim,

I agree, it was a great show. But since Ricco looked so confident in the other guy's guard & since only one of seven fights was won buy submission (using one's own gi to strangle! & they wondered why he had it on - that's strategy) will this in your opinion change people's training emphasis?

Dragonprawn,
MMA events have been going on for 10 years. Martial artists concerned with practical fighting ability have already accepted the necessity of becoming well rounded fighters.

The rest either practice martial arts for exercise, as a hobby or live in fantasy world.

I'm going to take it that by well rounded Tim means C-shaped.

DP, is the C-shape developed by tucking? heheh

All MA folks had to and are still learning to be well rounded, because they have never or will never completely leave fantasy.

Reality fighters who are still alive and healthy know it, throughout all cultures and times, its a part of their life.

BTW, Tim, in those early UFCs, I got the impression it was for amateurs who otherwise worked for a living. I get the impression the new crop of competitors are considered professional fighters?

Dragonprawn,
Uh oh, you cracked my secret code.

Kenneth,
Right, most of the early competitors in the UFC had day jobs (just like amateur fighters today).

Now, all the major competitors in the big events are pros, they are sponsored and are able to train full time.

Tim, there are some good internal fighters that compete in San Shou and Koushen (Mike Patterson). Why do you say "So far, no one that practices what most people consider "Internal" arts has won any fights."? Are you saying you haven't won any fights practising internal arts (the reason you're practising brazillian jiu jitsu)? BTW, have you heard of Dan Docherty winning tournaments?

Maciej,
The original question was in regards to professional MMA fights. So far, no "internal" martial artists have won any.

I am an an "internal" martial artist and I've won San Shou fights, these kinds of tournaments were not relevant to the topic.

Dan Docherty won some Asian stand up full contact fights. They are rough tournaments and I'm sure Mr. Docherty is a great fighter, but again, we were discussing Mixed Martial Arts.