does anyone know why some schools of xingyi stamp with their front foot when making for example a punch - step (punch lands as the front foot lands), while others stamp with their back foot (stamping it down as the punch lands). I'me trying tot get a picture of xingyi and this puzzled me a bit

In the Shanxi schools footwork is supposed to be silent. The theory is stamping the ground diverts energy into the ground and away from the opponent (unless the technique is to stomp on someone's foot).

Thanks for the quick reply.. The way it was explained to me was that the stamping will indeed be softer (in the end silent) as you develop your skill further. What puzzled me was that this initial stamping is always (i've seen about 4 schools) either with the front or with the back (/ hind, - i'me not a native speaker- ) foot. And they always say their way is the correct one...

This may only add more confusion, but is it stamping (stomping) or pressing? I agree with Tim that stamping as part of stepping diverts energy into the ground, the tension created in the leg allows little or no rebound compression past the tense area. A pressing action (into the ground like when you pull a weight from the floor) however does allow a compressing rebound action/reaction, which adds power. 'Dropping' a relaxed (without tension) raised leg may help a beginner to get a literal feel for 'dropping' weight to enhance the press, but ultimately it is the dropping of whole connected 'body' weight (more effective, more subtle) that is used.

I think with regards to the front or back (follow step?) issue, there is no right or wrong. Personally, if the energy is to be expressed on a predominantly horizontal plane, then i use a follow step, if its vertical then i usually don't.

There does appear to be alot variation in methods, (more than i was aware of), but if in doubt i think your only recourse is to evaluate it in light of the art's principles (or trust your teacher) until your own experience and skill level maybe tells you otherwise.

What i've seen was actually real stamping, though the teachers themselves moved silently. I guess the stamping must be a form of 'dropping' wich must lead to 'pressing'. I've also seen this stamping in demonstrations of 'hard' qigong though.

My choice of teacher though will probably be based more on his personality and ability to apply his art than on which foot he's stamping with...

For what it's worth, we spring off the back foot, make contact with the fist, then touch down with the front foot using our heel, then return to a back foot weighted stance. Landing on the heel sounds like a stamp, but it is just dropping the weight on the front heel. It is done this way to crush the opponent's foot and to allow a quick change back into a back foot weighted stance.

-crumble

Max,

When you say the students stamp & the teacher is silent it sounds similar to the way we train fast form Tai Chi in our school.

Stamping the lead (targeting) foot near the beginning of training helps to emphasize power. Perhaps more importantly it helps us develop timing. We step-strike, step-strike & so forth. The auditory signal of the stamping helps us make sure our foot is down before we turn our waist & strike.

As we get further along in our training, stamping is no longer needed. My teacher does not stamp unless it is to show a beginner how it can be used as a training tool.

Perhaps this occurs in some Hsing I training as well?

Hi guys, at my school we don't stamp (front or back) because like Tim said, it is wasting energy. Also hurts your joints if you are too gung-ho with the stomping.

I've seen another school stomp and supposedly their teacher is authentic, so it might be a different style of xingyi. It could also be that these guys are drawing from their wushu background (these stompers did wushu since they were little and are quite good in that category), whereas I never learned wushu. I don't equate sound magnitude with power; probably quite the opposite, in fact.

Granted, some styles do generate power with vigorous stomping (external styles, ie. Baji), but as always what you see on the outside does not equate with what goes on inside.

Jost a footnote on baji stomping.

My understanding of stomping in baji is that it is primarily used in early training to develop the ability to drop your weight in a full-body manner. When fighting (actual fight not two man drills or two man forms) with baji, you really shouldn't stomp because you lose speed and timing as was cited in the xing yi explanation.

I've also heard that the stomping stimulates the kidney acupuncture point in the sole of the foot and it increases alertness (Chen explanation). That may be true but it is not the explanation given in baji.

Also practitioners do a lot of bear steps (shuffle from side to side, raising and dropping the lead leg in a relaxed gentle manner with no vigorous stomp) to help condition a relaxed drop.

People who stomp loudly, vigorously, rigidly (often competing to see who has the loudest and most stomps) will damage their knees.

In our Yang T'ai Chi fast set, a stomp is used to break an opponents hold, ie. divert power away from point of contact.

The stomp is also simultanous with an expansion of the dantien (in one move atleast), so it can (momentarily) make us insubstantial at the point of contact.

A long, cat-like step/jump is used beforehand, being followed by the forward stomping motion...

FWIW

Anders,

I have trouble visualizing this application you refer to. Could you clarify it a bit? Thanks.

Hi dragonprawn,

I just lost a long explanation, so here is the short one...

At this page you can see (just) a picture of the final position in the second movement of the modified (Hao-stylishly so) Yang-style fast set...

http://knudtaichi.tripod.com/fastgb.htm

As he explains: "The arms are also different, they makes a siccor-like movement and ends with a push, where the fingers are pointing straight forward. The movement still have the basic parts Ward-off, pull and push."
The Ward-off is preceded by a jump, and the trasition between ward-off and pull is marked by the forward stomp of the right foot, which leads to the final push shown in the picture.

Does this help?

Hey that guy looks like the picture of health! I would really like to learn the super healthy practice of Tai ji from a man of his girth, and what fine pajamas!
Could it be this stomp is like the Iwama wiggle? In Aikido bokken practice, if you use your body correctly when you finish your strike, the bokken will have a slight wiggle at the tip. however everyone who practices Iwama bokken knows this, so when you go to a seminar, there is a whole bunch of wiggle'n go'en on. People really want to make their stick wiggle, because their teachers stick wiggles. from my experience if you do a really good falling step, and you miss your target, you come down really hard. Seance the force has no where else to go (like your foes ribs) it has to impact the ground. In champion ship boxing Jack Dempsey says "The late Joe Gans rarely missed with a long, straight punch; but, when he did you could hear for half a block the smack of his left sole on the canvas." So my thoughts on this would be that someone from this school of xing yi saw a teacher they thought was much better then they were; miss and "stomp" the ground, they thought it would give them some power, so they started "doing" it and by the time they opened their school they didn't know better, thus we have somewhere this generation of stompers.

love'en dim Pj's
chris

That guy's almost as big as YCF!
Thank's Anders, but I'm still not clear. don't worry about it though, some things need to be seen in person.

In an interview Sun Jian Yun, daughter of Sun lu Tang, i found this:
"Unless a student was very old, my father started all his beginning students practicing the ming jing (firm energy) level of training. In Xingyi practice this meant that the student's expression of force in each of the movements was obvious, such as the foot making an audible stomp on the floor when stepping" and "the ming Jing level of training was practiced for a reletively long period of time.." I guess this is the stomping I was referring to in my first question

Also in the Xingyiquan video of Liang Shou You I see and hear a lot stomping (both leading and hind leg). Maybe he's not in the same League as Sun lu tang, but still..

Is LSY any good? Is there a link to that video, or is it a vcd you bought? I know he co-authored that Hsing-I book, but hard to tell from the still photos you know?

Liang Shu-you is an extremely experienced practitioner and coach in a large variety of qigong methods and Chinese martial systems. Sam Masich who has produced two hsing-i videos with Master Liang told me that Master Liang was particularly interested in that art as a young man and spent many years practising it's fighting applications under several good teachers. That practical experience shows in his demonstrations of hsing-i applications and the two-man sets. Sam's videos are well-designed and shot and geared to beginners.

I gather that Master Liang was also particularly interested in Chinese wrestling as a youth and spent many years learning grappling and wrestling skills. As to his pakua, I have those videos he produced with Yang Jwing-ming and respect the skills/methods demonstrated although I think that it would be very difficult to learn from those particular videos unless you had a great deal of relevant experience "under your belt". Of course, you could say that about any martial arts video unless it is geared specifically to beginners.

As far as I know, the pakua videos and one hsing-i video produced by Dr. Yang with Master Liang are still available from YMAA. Sam Masich's hsing-i videos with Master Liang are currently not available as he is converting his old library of offerings to digital format and re-cutting some of the older volumes for re-release in late summer of this year.

cool. so does he stomp in your video too? If you do xing yi, what is your view (and Sam's view) on the stomping? Is there a wrong way to step/stomp?

felix, I bought the video.. And he stomps..
But, don't forget the Sun Lu Tang quote, I guess there's not much discussion about his expertise.