Tim,

Could you please give me some advice regarding this?

I would like to know what your opinion is regarding pushing oneself in these postures. I have trouble balancing the need to maintain relaxation against wanting to push myself when I start to "feel the burn" as it were, in these postures. Do you think that there is any point trying stand through the pain, or is it self -defeating? Thanks.

By the way, congratulations on your recent win.

Hi Barry,
My teachers explained it this way; If you stop holing a posture before you feel any "burn" or much effort, you will not become stronger (in the broad sense of the word). On the other hand, if you stand so long that you are forcing yourself to hold the posture, maybe over-tensing or distorting your alignment, it is counter-productive to your training (building bad habits). My teacher's advice was to work through the pain by trying to relax and 'accept' it, but only until you felt you had no option but to tense up and resist the pain. Of course, it is ultimately up to the individual to decide their limits.

You should be able to guage improvement by increases in the length of time you can stand in balance and without undue strain. If you feel your sense of standing in a relaxed, stable and balanced posture is steadily increasing, you are practicing correctly within your limits. If you are not improving, you are probably not holding the postures long enough, or if you begin having trouble holding postures for the same length of time you could previously, you are most likely overtraining.

May I add my two cents here? I think this is a very good topic.

Barry, have you graduated from your "Health" posts yet? Doing "combat" post without passing the "relaxation" and "quietness" stage may not be good for your long term progress. I heard (so I may be wrong here) some Yiquan folks became very "tight" because they moved into the "combat" post too soon.

Actually you still have to solve the pain problem doing the "Health" posts. Once you pass that stage (be able to hold a posture for 40 minutes) you will then work on the "relaxation" stage.

Moose

I think you have a good point although I understand one can achieve their goals from most any position they may just take longer. That Vandershoot (sp) fellow took three years to acheive the relaxed looseness that I got in only a few months from standing in 'wuchi'. ( Although I didn't get much of the strength training from wuchi).

You are quite right that some of the stages were quite trying.

Barry, sorry if my word "graduated" sounds cocky, the truth is that I am still doing "health" stance myself I never got over the pain stage even after a few years until I promised myself never let a day slipped by without doing at least 15 minutes of standing. After two months I got over that stage.

Mark, I was told this "wuchi" is the best for health but it's not a martial arts post. I should do more "wuchi" (you mean with hands by the side right?) post too, but I tend to hurry myself.

Hi all,

Thanks for the answers. I've found that recently I can hold the combat posts quite comfortably now (alternating every 10mins or so)for up to an hour. The real difficutly I am finding now is not with the legs, but arms and shoulders.

Anyway, I've decided not to worry too much about length of time I hold the postures so much as how long I can retain focus on feeling resistance, maintaining relaxation and alignment, etc.

One thing that has helped me though is seeing an Alexander Technique Teacher. The images of upflow and support through the body are more helpful to me than those of relaxation and sinking. I think that the latter just led to me collapsing my posture.

To all interested in Yiquan methods:
a posture is just a posture, it is a frozen movement, nothing more. Stop thinking about how long you can hold a posture or if there are 'combat' posture. A posture is just a still movement, it's your feeling that matters. As soon you 'catch' the right feeling of relaxation you gotta move on and 'catch' the feeling of tension. Belive me, there's almost no difference in which posture you hold, 'cause you must be able to have the right feeling in any posture, even the strangest ones. Depending on your desires (and fighting style) you will practice more the specific postures in which you feel 'weak'. Relaxation must be there with you 24 hrs. a day; when you are able to do that you will never go back to 'health' postures (unless you feel sick or something like that), exactly like you do not re-learn to drive yr. bike each time.

> a posture is just a posture, it is a frozen movement, nothing more.
Hmm, maybe you have different meanings than what I am reading. Every posture is associated with an unique mental image, and the order of doing the postures takes special considerations. A posture is just a posture only when you don't have any intenton. Yi is intention.

> "when you are able to do that you will never go back to 'health' postures "
"Health" posts are not just for health, the original name is called "Hunyuan" which means unity, round, full, etc. They are the fundation posts, some even say they accumulate energy while the combat posts "spend" energy. A beginner starts with Hunyuan posts, reach the "relaxation, unity, and quietness" stage then proceeds to the combat posts, later on he goes back to Hunyuan to find what he is missing then back to combat posts again. Back and forth.

Sorry guys, but I'm not sure what you are banging on about.

As far as I'm concerned the aim of standing posts is to get you integrating the structure of your body while eliminating the complication of movement.

Anyway, I wasn't asking how long (in minutes) it's advisable to stand. Rather I was just asking Tim whether he thought holding the posture after tension had set in was detrimental to practice.

Barry,

I remember an earlier posting of Tim's in which he gave an answer to this question of tension. I suggest you look it up for yourself ('cause my memory has been slippin'), but I think I recall him saying to stop when or shortly after tension sets in, and then perhaps try awhile longer after a rest. In that or another post of his I believe he said he held postures for up to 40 minutes (but I believe that was multiple postures for a combined total of 40 minutes -- again I don't recall...but I do recall him saying to me words to the effect that one of his teachers told him that if you're going to hold postures for much more time than this, then you'd be better of getting another job -- after trying long standing practice sessions I'm in agreement...& the added tension was a detriment rather than a help; I think I would have been better off standing two more-relaxed minutes each in several postures each day than to try 30+ tension-filled-minutes for one posture each day; besides, it's freakin' boring).

Hi,
I was wondering about something, I chuan is a branch of Hsing I, right? I just started training in I chuan after having done Hsing I for a couple of years and noticed very striking dissimilarities in the standing methods and basic physical principles (perhaps it's a matter of the style as well). I was curious if anyone has noticed any of these dissimilarities as well, not that they are good, bad, or anything, just that they seem to be an equally effective,but very different series of methods to developing similar types of power. Like I said, I have very little experience with I chuan, so I may be off. It just seems that there is a much bigger emphasis on contradictory forces and isometric excersize like body principles (like that excersize in health class where you stand in a doorway and press your arms out to the sides in opposite directions against the frame for a while, when you step forward and have no resistance to push against there is this effect of your arms floating upwards.) I dunno, interesting stuff. Any thoughts?

Josh. How about specifying these diferences?

Hi,
I guess most of the differences that I have seen so far(and I just started very recently with I chuan so I'm no expert)seem to be the very high elbows in standing (like you are holding a tree)whereas Hsing I seems to pull the elbows down more forcefully to protect the midsection and for issuing power in certain ways. Also, in Hsing I, there seems to be more angles in the way that the body parts are held(which may just be a stylistic thing as on another thread, this didn't seem to make much of a difference whether the arms and body parts made triangles or arcs). The little that I have experienced of the flavor of the art seems to be less overtly aggressive than Hsing I which has a bearing on body mechanics as well. I guess that's not alot of differences, but I just started this art and I am eager to hear of anyones experiences of this. Thanks. Josh

Josh,

The zhan zhuang postures are done for developing certain strengths and qualities.

In the beginning your main concentration will be on stretching and strengthening the tendons and building up your concentration and endurance while standing. You are going to build a strong frame (hsing)that will enable you to bear a heavy load while remaining connected.

When you begin moving as in mo cha stepping or simple drills your elbows will come down to a practical level as in hsing yi chuan. Yiquan puts an emphasis on developing the ability to make use of opposite force, hence the reason for holding the elbows high and pulling them in different directions. There are many details you have to concentrate on when standing. After some time you will be able to apply these things when you do your taiji, hsing yi or bagua.

Hi,
Thanks for the post. Like I said, I am very new to the art am very curious to learn as much as possible about it. The elbows thing makes sense, from what instruction I've had so far in standing, it seems the opposite force is a big thing. For whatever reason, it hadn't ocurred to me that that is just a stage in training, I guess I am just used to the way that I have been learning Hsing I. Anyhoo, thanks for the post. Josh

jmedurga,

Could you please explain a couple of things to me regarding your post.

First could you explain about your point that elbows are brought down to more 'practical level' when doing other drills (not zhan zhuang). I am intrigued by this as have not noticed so. For example, looking at level of hands and elbows in hunyuanzhuang and in a yiquan fighting stance.

Also, when you say about emphasis on developing ability to make use of contradictory forces, therefore, elbows are held high. Please also explain this to me as again I am not really sure why you say this.

Thank you,

Adrian

Adrian,

In the most basic stance, embracing the ball, tree, balloon etc. the arms are held at shoulder level. The contradictory or opposite force manifests when the upper arms are stretched out from the body in opposite directions. the forearms and hands are also stretched, the fingers stretching towards your centerline. Again in opposite directions. There are in excess of 20 different zhuangs and off hand I would say that half of them have the elbows lower.

The thighs are also pulled outward in a simmilar fashion with the shins having force pulling the feet inwards so they clamp the ground and the legs resemble the character omega.

This training gets the same results as if one was to practice yi chin ching (muscle tendon changing) from shaolin.

The stretching is to take place in at least 6 directions ; up, down, forward, backward, left, and right. Three pairs of opposite or contradictory directions. Wang Xiang Zhai called this "round force" in his writings. In yi chuan when you fa jing it is supposed to be like a bomb exploding in all directions, not in a linear path like a bullet.

Exercises such as mo cha stepping, taming the tiger, and different shi li are done with the elbows lower. We also practice peng chuan, pouncing tiger and the likes which are done with the elbows at a lower level as well. The opposite force is stressed in these practices as well.

When I say practical level I mean one that allows for better offensive and defensive application.

John

Dear John,

Thank you for your reply. I still do not find you have answered what I ask you however. Yes, I am aware of the different postures practiced, and the levels of the elbows in each posture. You said that later on, when start moving exercises, the elbows are then lowered down to more practical level. The level of arms in moving exercises are very much related to how they are held in zhan zhuang, and not lowered down for practicality (they already in practical position). Wang Xiangzhai said also that zhan zhuang is shi li in stillness, and shi li is zhan zhuang extended into space. So of course is not that you train zhan zhuang with elbow at this level, then start shi li or other exercises and change down to lower level. This is to separate zhan zhuang and shi li, when, essentially, they are the same.
Look at cheng bao zhuang, which you talk about, (or hunyuan zhuang also), what is impractical about level of arm/elbow in this position? These two postures are arguably most popularly practiced ones, largely because position of arms is very much related to positioning in actual combat. Yes of course some exercises have elbows/arms in lower positions, eg. mocabu, tui la shi li etc...
Look at shadow boxing practise also, for straight punch, arms (and elbows) in very similar position to that practised in cheng bao zhuang or hunyuan zhuang.

"and different shi li are done with the elbows lower"

well, some shi li are done like this,for example tui la shi li can be done like this, kai he shi li also can, others have elbows at similar level to chengbao zhuang, like fen he shi li, there is also ti an shi li which have elbows at higher and lower level. Of course some exercises have elbows higher, some lower, and both are practical for fighting and important to train both.
Yes in fuhu zhuang also elbows are lower, but this is certainly not because it is more practical a posture that others. Sure it is one of more advanced jiji zhuang postures, and is also quite a challenging postion when held correctly, though please explain what is more practical about this posture that hunyuan zhuang. Fuhu zhuang certainly strengthen legs greatly and is useful for fighting when you are low down like that, take duli zhuang also,this is useful for kicking techniques. Yet it is not to say that these are more practical that others, posture like hunyuanzhuang are more commonly used in actual fighting (notice many practitioners spend more time with cheng bao zhuang and hun yuan zhuang than other postures). In Yiquan all the exercises are practical and have their uses in combat situation.

Regards,

Adrian

I understand what you mean and agree.

I guess it's a matter of preferences. I would prefer to attack someone or defend myself with elbows a bit lower than shoulder level.

In theory one should be able to defend oneself from any zhuang. I would not attack someone nor defend myself with using cheng bao zhuang. There's too many vital spots that posture leaves open for my liking.

Different schools, teachers, preferences.

The ability to use what one practices is what matters.

John

John, i am a little curious about your post. Though maybe i misinterpret, if this is case, then excuse me.

"I guess it's a matter of preferences. I would prefer to attack someone or defend myself with elbows a bit lower than shoulder level. "

I think here you are referring to chengbao zhuang, no? Please excuse me, though the elbows are a bit lower that shoulder level. Of course different teachers may teach slightly different, and often you can see people do the same posture slightly different (eg, maybe hands slightly further apart, balloon slightly bigger, such variations...), and yet all of these can be correct, if the practitioner has understood the body mechanics of the posture.
If in chengbao zhuang, you are standing with your hands at shoulder level (maybe a little higher), then it is for sure that your elbows should not be at same level also, but slightly lower. In other words, they are not at shoulder level.
If you are standing with hands at shoulder level and elbows also at that level, then i think this is not only impractical, but also not correct.

Regards,

Adrian