Hsing i vs bjj

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Hsing i vs bjj
   By Anonymous on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 12:13 am: Edit Post

tim, how would a hsing i master stand against a bjj guy.would it be all over when it hit the ground for the hsing i guy or could he stand up to the grappling.??


   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 06:26 am: Edit Post

To Anonymous,
This line of questioning reminds me of one of those martial-arts magazine articles: "This Art vs. That Art." You say Hsing-I "master" vs. Brazilian Ju-Jitsu "guy." Are they equally matched? Sun Lu Tang was a Hsing-I master who won a match in which the rules of engagement required him to first be on the ground in an armlock (if my recollection is accurate)!
Look, any two equally-matched masters of just about any good martial school (like Hsing-I & BJJ) under no-holds barred (combat) conditions would each have an equal chance of "winning" or losing -- it would be fairly quick: just like well-trained US Army Soldiers & US Marines have been in past combat situations.
Here's an example: in WWII Japanese troops attacked using only bayonets against a US Marine patrol on the island of Bougainville as the patrol was at a rest. One Marine -- literally caught with his trousers down (as he was taking a dump) -- ended up decapitating one Japanese soldier with a sharpened engineer's shovel but not before the Japanese soldier's bayonet had pierced through the Marine's left, guarding forearm & into his chest about 1"; meanwhile his sergeant, covered with blood, came out without a scratch after dispatching several of the enemy with only a knife (Ka-Bar). That's real earnest hand-to-hand combat. When it finally begins it's usually over very quickly & it's almost always deadly.
Another example. A professional boxer was drafted into service in Vietnam. Due to a stupid new rule (still in practice today) his & most of his comrades' weapons were locked up in an armory when the enemy attacked his base. He was eventually killed with rifle fire as were many in his unit, but not before he singled out one enemy to take his frustrations out on. The enemy's head was caved in from the boxer's blow(s). With bullets flying, the boxer & his immediate enemy didn't have time for 15 rounds of M.O.Q.-rules fighting: it was over quickly for both of them.
A last (more modern) example: a US Marine was pinned & being overpowered by a South-American soldier & was unable to reach his knife (circa 1980's/90's -- & he wasn't trying to reach his knife so he could tickle or intimidate; this was real combat: he was going to kill or at least seriously harm his enemy); so the Marine dislocated the enemy's jaw & there wasn't any fight left in the former enemy. If one thing isn't working, then quickly do something else rather than waste time & energy (literally endangering yourself) by struggling. That's real hand-to-hand combat. And don't go thinking that it doesn't happen on the modern battlefield or even out on the street (or I'll have to give you street examples too)!
Oh, the Hsing-I master would probably stand in San-Ti. Would he ever hit the ground? Would the BJJ guy even need to grapple with him? Who knows? Are they really in combat or just a contest; and if a contest, then by what rules, & will either cheat? Again, who knows? If it's real earnest combat, then one would probably gain an advantage fairly quickly & it would be over one-way-or-the-other fairly soon with one or both dead (as some -- if not all -- Hsing-I masters know how to use some weapons to great effect).
I won't resist: 3 more US Marine hand-to-hand stories:
(1) Who would win in a bar fight: a US Marine or a (British) Royal Marine? The question is truly unanswerable, but here's what happened in Hong Kong (circa 1980's): a Royal Marine (R.M.) told a US Marine in a bar that "R.M." stood for "Real Marines;" the US Marine's beer mug then slammed into the Royal Marine's head starting & ending the fight (which answers the the question above for that particular moment).
(2) Two US Marine friends in Japan (feeling blue due to the long separation from their wives -- also friends) were drinking & talking 'til someone said the wrong thing. A whiskey bottle hit one Marine's forehead. Whiskey bottles aren't made out of movie-land sugar-glass: they don't often break over someone's head. The struck Marine's forehead was pulverized (skin just sagging with the brain more free to move -- not a good thing); the Marine survived due to the skill of Japanese brain surgeons (they also have excellent burn specialists -- think about all that practice at home during WWII).
(3) One US Marine attacked another in a mess hall (dining room), the other promptly picked up a drinking glass & slammed it into the attacker's head. The attacker was instantly knocked out, hit the floor, his blood flowing freely (& bloody glass everywhere -- I helped to clean it up).
This is how real, no-nonsense fighting often goes. It's "street fighting." It's "cheating." It's "using tricks" to win quickly -- to survive.
So who's the most crafty of the two: the Hsing-I master in question, or the BJJ guy in question? The Japanese soldier who could have just shot the squatting Marine, but chose instead to use the bayonet, or the embarrased Marine? The Japanese soldiers who had full-length rifles with 21"-long bayonets attached (giving definite reach advantage), or the Marine sergeant with a 7"-long knife in hand? The Vietnamese rifle-toting guerilla fighter, or the unarmed professional boxer? The bigger, stronger South-American grappler, or the smaller US Marine? The Royal Marine, or the p'd-off US Marine? The friend with the big mouth, or the friend with the even bigger whiskey bottle? The attacker in the dining facility, or the defender?
Note that in the Pacific Theatre during WWII many US servicemen died by Japanese bayonets, swords, & knives. Note also that many Japanese servicemen died by US bayonets & knives. So who's training was the superior style? Neither -- it came down to the individuals involved under the immediate circumstances that they found themselves in. You could go nuts trying to figure out with absolute certainty which stylist would win or lose against another stylist. So I suggest don't even bother trying (& you could make time for other things: just skip reading those magazine articles that pose the same type of question). {:o)


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 12:13 pm: Edit Post

Always remember... it takes a big man to cry,
but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.


   By Tim on Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 05:09 pm: Edit Post

Anonymous,
These kinds of questions are very interesting, but, as Mike pointed out, are virtually unanswerable. Besides striking techniques, Xing Yi also has standing grappling techniques, and, although rare to find nowadays, basic groundfighting techniques called "Di Long Jing." The techniques of Di Long Jing are practical, but are no where near as sophisticated or complete as those of BJJ.BJJ has efficient stand up techniques, although not developed to the level of Xing Yi Quan. The point is, ALL legitimate martial arts offer realistic training and practical techniques, but all of them will focus on one range or aspect of fighting more than others. No one martial art has the sum of all martial knowledge. The answer, if you want to be a well rounded fighter, is to cross train. It is fine, and usually preferable to specialize in one range of fighting, but it is necessary to be at least adequately prepared to fight in all others.


   By Anonymous on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post

One time somebody asked the question to a British soldier Who was badder the Irish or the british?As the soldier begin to ellucidate on the centuries of British occupation,a rock hurled by one of Belfasts best pre teen arms hit him in the skull,killing him on the spot.


   By Anonymous on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:40 pm: Edit Post


   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 02:48 am: Edit Post

Re: Anon, 24Oct, 4:16pm,
Again, unlike BJJ practitioners (to my limited knowledge), some Hsing-I practitioners learn the use of some weaponry, as apparently some Irish lads do too. :-)


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 03:17 am: Edit Post

that is exactly why I don't elucidate anymore.
But I really like the song Carly Simon did about it.

so, do you think the people who invented words had suggestions that were shot down? (And by whom?)
like, did someone suggest calling a bird a fork and someone else said, "no, that doesn't work there." Or someone suggesting the moon be called thupadimiosiconulousnesteredope.

were they paid? or is that the type of job you just do because you love it. Did they keep notes? Were words lost?

were they forced? Tyranny and subjugation have
existed as long as language... and quite possibly immediately prior. Could our very means of communication be the product of a tortured "THEY".

Either way, I'm just glad that
people don't turn into warewolves when the thupadimiosiconulousnesteredope is full.


   By Robert Mathers on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 01:21 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
Can you comment on the 'Ground Dragon method' you refer to under the Xing-Yi section. Is this "method" an extension of principles found in the 5-elements and 12-animals?

Thanks,
Robert Mathers


   By Tim on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 08:45 pm: Edit Post

Robert,
I wrote about the Ground Dragon Method in my last post above. It was a basic method of ground fighting that emphasized fighting a standing opponent once you were thrown to the ground. As far as I have seen, it has nothing to do with the ELements or Animal forms of Xing Yi Quan.


   By Bluto Betarski on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:40 pm: Edit Post

It's an animal.
It's a Snakey Snakey animal.

No, it's in the wiggley worm form. I saw them do it in the movie "Animal House."


   By Idaho Joe on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 05:34 pm: Edit Post

It ain't the size of the dog in the fight; its the size of the fight in the dog- irrespective, if I might add, of whatever particular style of macho mojo the dog practices(practices is the key word here).


   By dp on Monday, March 11, 2002 - 06:14 pm: Edit Post

Even the Gracie's will say they do not fight one the ground if there is even a chance at more than one attacker.

They also happen to carry weapons with them and most, if not all are registered to carry firearms. This is also from the horse's mouth.

I guess it comes down to this. Who cares really? Who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali? Guess what, we will never know so who cares.


   By Idaho Joe on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 10:08 pm: Edit Post

Ah, who cares? Well, I might, if'n I happened to have bet on one or the other. But to be sure, if Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali, or a Gracie, or a Xing Yi dude is fightin, and you happen to also practice that style, or be from that school, then most individuals would care very much indeed. I think its a form of patriotism. But more to the point, as Tim seems to indicate quite frequently, it don't hurt to be a well rounded fighter. Somewhat more to the point, since most styles( as Tim points out above) focus on a particular set of skills in a particular range, it behooves us to select a style that most suits our build and personality- then figure out what is lacking and fill the gaps from elsewhere. All that being said, with absolutley no disrespect to Tim whatsoever, there is a huge distance between even the most "non-cooperative sparring " and a life & death struggle.


   By Tim on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 01:33 pm: Edit Post

Right on Joe,
I completely agree. My point is that realistic sparring is going to much better prepare a student for the real deal alot better than any other kind of training (excepting regularly engaging in "life and death" struggles).


   By Idaho Joe on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
From what I have heard of your program, it is one of the best; certainly your incorporation of realistic and non-cooperative sparring helps make it so. And perhaps competition is as close to the real thing as most of us can(and hopefully ever will)get. I fully agree with you that realistic sparring is a "must" (man, I think back on my youth and all the bogus "non-contact" sparring we did in Shotokan that helped me get my butt severely kicked by the first western style boxer I encountered!). Still, there is an element of the unknown in the real deal that no amount of training can encompass; albeit, the only solution to this problem maybe the untenable one of encouraging your students to engage in bar fights(actualy have a friend, a Kenpo man, who did exactly that for years, but then he also made it a point to practice drunk, figuring that was the state he'd be in during a fight). At any rate, as a decade old convert to the IMA's I would like to express my personal gratitude to you for showing people that the the Chinese IMA's can work quite well in a fight. God knows I'm gettin to old to accept anymore challenges from the local Tae Kwon Do or Ninjuitsu folks to prove that Tai Chi can be used for fighting.


   By CoolHand Luke on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 10:54 pm: Edit Post

"I guess it comes down to this. Who cares really? Who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee or Muhammad Ali? Guess what, we will never know so who cares."

I care a lot.And not only about the humans.

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict.html


   By Idaho Joe on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 12:28 am: Edit Post

Okay, my money is on this guy!

http://www.boomerwolf.com/pred0199.htm


   By dp on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:55 am: Edit Post

http://users.pandora.be/p0p0/youare.swf

:)


   By Idaho Joe on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 11:28 am: Edit Post

dp, let offer my condolences regarding your "condition"

http://www.deansplanet.com/images/funpic7.jpg


   By CoolHandLuke on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 01:51 pm: Edit Post

Idaho Joe,

Wolverines are overated.They do not even make the "Ultimate Carnivore" list.

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict13.html


   By Idaho Joe on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 03:53 pm: Edit Post

Your website, while really quite cool, is also biased towards critters that humans have managed to pit against each other. Wolverines are diffucult to capture live and more diffucult to cage. A reading of the scientific material on wolverines will reveal that pound for pound they are considered the strongest animals of their size. They also have claws close to the size of a Griz's.

Back in the sixties at the San Diego Zoo they had a Wolverine and a polar bear waiting in a holding area for the completion of their pens, both in cages rated to hold an adult Griz. During the night, the Wolverine broke out of it's cage and into the Polar bear's. When the Zoo personnel arrived the next morning they discovered the Wolverine in the Polar bears cage happily stuffing itself on the remains of the bear.

For my part, I have worked in the Selkirk Mts. in Northern Idaho for the last decade and have encounterd Griz several times and a Wolverine once. The Griz have always run away, but the Wolverine stood it's ground and faced down our 3/4 ton pickup! It literally radiated a ferocity that mere words cannot express. The only animal in these parts with comparable bravery is the Moose- who has been known to take on trains during the rut(man the coyotes love that- they hang around the tracks for days afterwards licking up the remains).


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