Tim,

I just read your article on Xing Yi, very nicely stated.

I have a quick question about a brief comment you made in the article.

Would you care to expound on your concept of the 5 energies mentioned (downward, upward, forward, outward, and inward).


also, I am intrigued by your "ground dragon" comments, can you describe this in more detail? Is it a set of techniques, or a strategy from a single position or what?

Briefly, the "Five Elements" that form the foundation of Xingyiquan should be thought of as the five basic methods of generating force in certain directions (Pi Quan-downward; Zhuan Quan-upward; Beng Quan-forward; Pao Quan from inside outward; Heng Quan-from outside inward) and not as a simple collection of techniques.

All subsequent movements and methods of generating force in the animal and linked forms are combinations and variations of the Five Elements.

The "Ground Dragon" practice in XIngyiquan is a set of techniques to be used after you have been knocked to the ground. They aren't ground grappling (like par terre in western wrestling styles or the ground work of Judo or BJJ) rather they deal with fending off or taking down a standing opponent.

My student Jake Burroughs wrote a thorough article on the practice, maybe he can provide a link.

Jake's blog is here: http://threeharmonies.blogspot.com/

Hmmm, would you care to go a little more in depth on the bao quan and heng quan energetics? On casual glance, one can easily see the outward energy of the bao quan, but the inward of the heng quan is a little more covert.

Also, what is the difference between forward and outward?


I look forward to reading that article. I couldn't find it on the blog.

Andrew
Which article on Xing Yi of Tim's are you referring?

The article I wrote on the Ground Dragon Classic can be found on my main website: www.threeharmonies.com under articles.

Cheers
Jake

Jake,

This one http://www.shenwu.com/hsingi.htm

and thank you for the article.

Blessings!

You are welcome. Let me know what you think of it.
J

I have read it through once, I will probably have to read it through several times to fully understand everything, but as is here we go:

I thought it was very straight forward writing, that is very clear and understandable.

You didn't over-complicate things by speaking "smart" but you didn't lose the sensible and intelligent feel either.

The presentation of the techniques with the pictures was very good. Your photographer captured the scenes very well. I didn't have any trouble following your narrative.

It is interesting, my teacher never taught a set of techniques per se for the ground, but he essentially did all of these things when taken down. He also had a single position very similiar to what you describe that he worked from, I dubbed it the playful monkey posture, and I always used the label the ground dragon for his defenses. That's why I latched on to the term in Tim's article.

I have always advocated complimenting your standup with a good ground style, but have never been fortunate enough to be able to pursue it myself.

I have been surprised, however, how much of what my teacher taught us in class has made me difficult to handle for others on the ground.

Much thanks for your willingness to share.

Blessings!

ps: still curious about the energy thing with bao quan and beng quan, and how heng quan is inward.

thanks!

"Inward" refers moving in towards your opponents centerline at an angle, hence the term "outside to inside". You move from an outside angle, to the inside of your opp. guard, toward his centerline.


By bao quan, you mean pao quan? Inside and outward means you maneuver into and past the opponents guard and project energy outward.

Outward is not exactly forward.

just my 2 cents.

Robert,

indeed, bao quan and pao quan are one and the same.

Let me repeat back to you what I understood from your explanation.

"Inward" does not mean from me going out, but in fact from my opponents out coming in. So Heng Quan's energy is an entering energy - bridging per se from outside his guard to inside.

This is intriguing.

I don't understand your thoughts on bao quan. please explain more.

Glad you liked the article. I am not that smart, so most of my writing does not come across as such;) Having a professional photographer as a wife is handy too;)

NONE of the techniques were developed to deal with others engaging you on the ground. The Chinese simply never developed a systematic ground fighting curriculum because they looked down upon rolling around on the ground like "two dogs" (imagine if they would have had a different attitude!).

Your teacher is not Nelson Chin is it? That is the only person I have heard refer to anything as "playful monkey."

Jake

Oh and with help re: heng energy.... think of this.... you throw a hook... eventually it comes back to the center of your body because your arm (I assume) is connected to your body. The arc back into your body is the energy of heng.

I can explain this VERY simply in person. Sorry.

No, my teacher is Mark Kimzey, of Saint Louis. I am a grandstudent of Dale Shigenaga. I came up with the playful monkey thing myself. We never used many labels or names for things in class, so I started making up my own.


I guess that makes sense, re: heng energy. I never thought of it that way because I never thought of heng coming from the outside in, but I guess in way it does.

Heres the best way i can explain it,

Forward is not outward, simply because they have different opposites. The opposite of forward is backward, the opposite of inward, is outward.

You cant give forward the opposite of outward, and you cant give outward the opposite of backward.

When you execute a classic heng quan, you are circling around your opponents attack to the outside, then you circle in. Hence the "inward, to outward.

The energy of pao "fire" is like the energy of an explosion, or a bomb going off, the energy of beng chuan is like shooting an arrow.

Andrew,
Cool beans. Look out... Nelson Chin has it copywritten;)

Jake,

Good to know!

Robert,

thanks for the explanation.

It's interesting, because as a young student, I used to describe to myself the five fists as having these directional energies:

Pi = down
Zuan = up
Beng = forward
Pao = outwards (along two directions)
Heng = sideways

that's why I was interested in the description.

Sure buddy.