Tim,
I've seen a lot of videos with people doing pi quan with the front foot forward, elbow not sunken, and wrist not bent. They also step big.

Is it wrong to modify pi quan by dropping the elbow more, bending the wrist, taking a smaller step, and turning the front foot in a little?

There are a variations to all the Elements, as long as the movements and methods of generating force follow the fundamental principles, they are "correct."

I just read your hsing i article for the first time. It's really good. In another post you mentioned that energy of pi quan is down which I guess is why it is referred to as splitting fist.

How are the tiger and monkey linked to this specific downward energy? You wrote that the monkey's version of pi quan is random powerful palm strikes coming from different angles. How is this "downward"? Is the downward energy of pi not meant to be taken as literal? Forgive me for my ignorance.

There is no monkey version of pi quan...

Monkey can be referred to as a "variation" of pi quan. Variation means "slightly different".

The animal forms were not part of the original style of xing yi quan, they were added later.

I think most of your questions can be answered thru practice and application of techniques.

If pi means downward energy does that mean any downward strike and movement is pi?

no. Pi chuan is xing yi quan. It uses the movement and power generation of xingyi quan. If you just stood still, and did a downwards arm chop, that would not be pi chuan.

You sound very confused grasshoppa. Less complicate, more meditate.

Read Tim's article on hsing i and see how he translates pi.

I think you are being overly critical. I think it is a good article. Its no ones fault but your own if you cant understand it.

That being said, i also think that you do not have the experience, or credentials to criticize anyone..

Tim wrote this in the 5 energies thread:

"Briefly, the "Five Elements" that form the foundation of Xingyiquan should be thought of as the five basic methods of generating force in certain directions (Pi Quan-downward; Zhuan Quan-upward; Beng Quan-forward; Pao Quan from inside outward; Heng Quan-from outside inward) and not as a simple collection of techniques. "

His explanation sounds like it is based more off of Chinese that was directly translated. Your explanation, Robert, sounds like you're just describing the form itself which is of little importance when discussing a system that is based off of principles and not form.

Form follows function meaning you modify the form anyway you need it as long as it adheres to the principles and you don't just use dead forms. In the case of pi the principles if downward force or splitting.

Notice how the word "briefly" comes into play.

You say form is of little importance? If xing yi quan was based solely on principles, it would not have been around for a millenia..

The reality of it is, all effective martial arts, whether or not you want to argue if they are based on form, or principle, all have one common trait, and that is, "effectiveness in a real time combat situation". Youre not gonna get much out of forms, or principles, without application in a "live" situation.

That being said, I trust Tims experience and knowledge, and know enough to say that I trust his word, and advice, anyday, over yours..

But you can continue to nitpick over meaningless details. The real proof is in the pudding, and if you and tim were in a friendly sparring match, there is no question in my mind who would win... lol

I'm not sure why you'd bring up a friendly sparring match beerrn Tim and I since you, Robert, are the one I'm having this debate with. Tim is a cool guy and a good teacher.

Hsing I isn't around because it is time tested in battle. It may have been at one point in time but not so much today. Hsing I serves as exercise that is more interesting in some ways than conventional exercise. Hsing I falls into the category of modern day peace time martial arts which all traditional Chinese martial arts currently fall into.

If hsing i were

And further more if hsing I was applied in "live situations" more often there would be more videos on YouTube showing it. There would be sparring videos of people using hsing I. But when you type in hsing I into YouTube you get videos like yours: videos of people JUST doing the forms and then blabbing about able to use it for real.

This was labeled as hsing I free fighting but the other guy isn't really resisting. You can't throw someone around like that unless they are letting you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBEJgAbunv8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

dude, cmon.

Im just saying, that you are sitting there criticizing other peoples work like you know better or something..

"Hsing I serves as exercise that is more interesting in some ways than conventional exercise"

Are you trying to point out the fact that youre young?

"Hsing I falls into the category of modern day peace time martial arts which all traditional Chinese martial arts currently fall into."

By your logic, xing yi is based more on principle, than form, therefore you contradict yourself, and your point is not valid. You cant classify principles as "modern day peace time martial arts". There could be someone out there using xingyi or "internal" "principles" combined with jiu jitsu, in a real time self defense scenario, or in a tournament.

"But when you type in hsing I into YouTube you get videos like yours: videos of people JUST doing the forms and then blabbing about able to use it for real."

If i were to post a video of me fighting someone, it would not look like me doing a xing yi form. Depending on the opponent, I might use a xingyi style "entry" and usually finish with a takedown, and a submission, if i can, that is...

Anyway, you are in for a disappointment.. If you want to see flashy perfect moves, maybe you should check out a few kung fu movies, i can recommend a few.

"And further more if hsing I was applied in "live situations" more often there would be more videos on YouTube showing it"

Oh, right, because we all know if its not on you tube, it doesnt exist..

Please post a vid of yourself practicing the 5 elements like boxing combinations. combined with jiu jitsu, in a real time self defense scenario, or in a tournament.

The forms are chrystalized versions of the direction principles. But they were someone else's techniques who could use them as is way back when. I'm not sure if he meant for the same forms to be passed down all through time. If it doesn't look like the forms when you fight then what's the point of drilling them and trying to ingrained them in your muscle memory? Or are you doing the forms to practice power in the five directions? If it's the latter case then the five directions could be practiced in many other ways as well.

You keep referring to me as a kid. Is that because I don't agree with your hoaky hsing I semantics and you can't make a good argument?

I don't do hsing I per say. I'm learning the forms from a friend and I do stake standing on my own. My current goal is to get good at Shuai Jiao which has forms

I don't stand around doing forms generally accept Shuai jiao solo throwing drills/forms. The difference between Shuai jiao drills and most other forms is that you do the throws the same exact way as you do the form. Then you add in footwork to make variations on the throws. You don't do the drills one way and then fight completely the opposite like in other traditional Chinese martial arts.

I've forgotten what we're debating. If the five elements aren't just directional forces meant to develop power in those directions...then what are they, Robert?

Enlighten me.

"I've forgotten what we're debating"

did you ever know?

"You keep referring to me as a kid. Is that because I don't agree with your hoaky hsing I semantics and you can't make a good argument?"

Uh, well, aside from your less than good spelling, and immature outbursts, its because you say things that a kid would say, and ask childlike questions, you are also trying to make yourself feel adequate by criticizing someone who is better than you, excusable (but still incorrect) behavior for a child, if you arent a kid, then wow...

"If it doesn't look like the forms when you fight then what's the point of drilling them and trying to ingrained them in your muscle memory?"

A perfect example of a childlike question...
You know what? youre right. We should all just stop training forms now.. tai chi? Worthless.. lol..

"I don't stand around doing forms generally EXCEPT (not accept) Shuai jiao solo throwing drills/forms."

Just had to correct you there. Youre welcome. And, I have studied some shuai jiao.. the forms power generation stances and footwork are almost identical to xing yi, (internal power generation) xing yi just has more stances and forms .. Do you even know what youre talking about?


"The difference between Shuai jiao drills and most other forms is that you do the throws the same exact way as you do the form."

If you have an equally skilled, resisting opponent, i seriously doubt you can pull off a technique that looks identical to form... unless youre mifune...

"I don't do hsing I per say. I'm learning the forms from a friend and I do stake standing on my own."

Oh, because the way you talk, you sound like an ancient chinese sagacious master, correcting Tims article and all. when in reality, youre just another backyard martial artist "learning from a friend" who does stake standing and thinks he is the most powerful chi striker in the world..

"If the five elements aren't just directional forces meant to develop power in those directions...then what are they, Robert?"

They are techniques with fighting application..

You seem to show an enthusiasm for martial arts, and i respect that. I hope you continue to practice skill and develop Wu De, but judging your attitude, and demeanor, you are obviously shooting steam out of your rear.

Its the internet bro, We are all impressed by your expansive knowledge..

Anymore nonsensical questions?

I admire the fact that you "want" to know as much as you think you know. I suggest finding a real teacher, and studying for about a year, until you go on the internet trying to sound and pass yourself off as someone who knows what they are talking about, because you CLEARLY do not... No disrespect intended, im just being honest.

Oh, and another thing.

You started the thread with an obviously amateur question, and then you continue to compliment Tims xing yi article, then you start talking mad •••• about the way he wrote it...

Are you schizophrenic?