Kuntao/ Hsing I connection?

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Kuntao/ Hsing I connection?

   By Shane on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 10:21 pm: Edit Post

Xi Feng,

Admittedly, I could be misunderstanding your descriptions- but It sounds to me as if you are imagining the moves you listed as though there is distance between you and your opponent.

If, instead, you imagine yourself torso to torso with your opponent, the movements you described would take on deeper dimensions- the hand you describe as 'blocking' would be grasping and extending your opponents lead arm, painfully, as your lead arm strikes or even knocks your opponent down.

I'm a Xing Yi novice- and I may be way off base- since I don't recognize the Chinese names for many of the forms.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 11:42 pm: Edit Post

Shane
Yure correct to assume that there is some distance (however small you might argue) between you and your opponent - and the net movement is either forward, backward or to the side.
You are not "grappling"

Also, in most of these instances the fist is closed - i.e. no grasping.

In Pao, you advance, strike straight ahead with one fist and simultaneously effect a strong "block" (against asimultaneous incoming strike) with the other fist/forearm (upward to L. or R.)

In Xiang ke, the move is retreating and "blocking" upwards with the fist/forearm.

In Lian Huan, you are turning to the left and "blocking" across your body with the fist/forearm.

In Ba Shi, you are stationary in ma bu, and your body extends left and the "block" is low and downward (against a potential kick) with the left fist/forearm.

In Chu Dong, you are moving to the right side and your forearm, with an open hand, is "blocking" upward
Thus said, I could argue with myself that this is also an offensive move - it depends on what your opponent is doing (i.e. attacking or retreating)

In Si Ba, you are advancing and your hands alternate with open palm "blocks", at knee level,(left and right) against low kicks.

In Za Shi, you are retreating and "blocking" upwards against the strike of the advancing opponent (much the same move as in Xiang Ke)

Having said all that... anyone could still (and probably will) shoot me down for the use of the word "block" and how to interpret it - oh well, "you pays your money and takes your choice" - "to each his own"

If I had started arguing with my teacher (in Mandarin) if something was/wasn't a block, he probably would have just smacked me and told me to pay attention?

BTW - here are my accepted meanings of the (English) verb "to block"

To stop or impede the passage of or movement through (of a fist, or kick?); obstruct (a strike?):
To impede the movement of an opponent (advancing or retreating) by physical interference.

OK now, - let's hear from all the lexicographers out there in Martial Arts Land - Bring 'em on!


   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 02:57 am: Edit Post

One thing to remember is that if you have a sifu who actually has extensive experience in real fighting, he will tend to have his own way of doing things based on what worked for him as opposed to just mimicing his teacher, and what works for one temperament and physique may not work for another.


   By Edward Hines on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 04:35 am: Edit Post

Xi Feng,

I'm not familiar with all the moves you're describing however if a fist is close it can signify that it is already 'grasping' another person.

Also the rising arm in Pao quan I've often used as an imbalancing move, and as a strike with either the forearm or the elbow.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 07:28 am: Edit Post

Hi Ed,

The arm motions I describe preclude grasping - the rising fist (in paoquan) starts from the dantian and the forearm rises/rotates outward to shoulder level. If you were trying to grasp some part of your opponent in this move, it would be quite awkward and inefficient (if not impossible).

In pao, you are advancing back to the center line, from a position on one side, hence, your opponent is somewhat straight ahead of you and is the intended recipient of your pao fist - he would not be in any position to be struck by your other arm (at least at that point in time)

However, as I might expect my opponent to try and simultaneously strike me, it's in my best interests to try and "block" his "incoming" (i.e. if it was "R. youpaoquan", you would be blocking a right handed strike from your opponent with your left-rising fist/arm - if it was "L. zuopaoquan", you would block a left handed strike with your right fist/arm)

BTW - this is all Hebei Xingyiquan, from Jiang Rong Qiao's lineage I describe. One of my teacher's teachers was a student of Jiang, and I believe my portrayal of these actions is basically accurate. Take it as you will.

Sorry, I can't visualize the imbalancing move or strike you describe - unless your opponent is to the side. (in which case I would probably be thinking about hengquan, not a weak side and ineffective strike with paoquan)


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 09:13 am: Edit Post

Mr. Sohl brought up an excellent -- and often overlooked point -- in the internal arts. It has been my experience that those teachers who bring some fighting experience to their teaching will always emphasize the physical attributes that worked for them in terms of tactics and strategy.

Sometimes this emphasis is beneficial for their students and sometimes it is not.


   By Bruce Leroy on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit Post

It's getting really deep in here...


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 01:22 pm: Edit Post

I know I said it before... but I have to agree with Xi Feng in re to Pao Chuan and other points he has made. The raising forearm is an obvious block, not stating it is a batting away motion- I believe I was the one that said "blocking" and started all this... like I said before, I wish I said parry. However, it is interesting to see how many people can agree and disagree. I suppose this is why there are many styles, teachers, and teachers with their own ideas on what is correct... Bruce Lee sure did not view his Wing Chun the same way William Cheung did, Bruce Lee tried and tested what worked for him... so in that respect Mr. Sohl said it best. I can relate to this point, this is the way I was taught. I did learn alot of the philosophical side of Xing Yi etc. However, my teacher always stressed the combat side of his arts.

Xi Feng, I am also a Hebei stylists. My sifu was taught(disciple) by Y.W. Chang(The Colonel) and The Col. was taught by Chen Pan Ling- who was taught by Li Cun Yi.

Nice chatting with everyone.


   By Meynard Ancheta on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 02:33 pm: Edit Post


   By Edward Hines on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 02:40 am: Edit Post

Xi,

In my opinion you take these things too literally. All the components of Pao do not need to be applied sequentially. Individual parts can be used on their own. Saying you can only use pao from the inside, that you must bring the hand down to the dan tien before opening out with it is extremeley restrictive. It's like saying you can only use beng as a strike to the body, not the head because in the form it's a body level movement.

I for one don't ever want to have to fight with those kinds of restrictions on my behaviour. In fights it's rare for a whole form movement to be completed before being obstructed. It's important to think in terms of using segments of movements.

You seem to know a lot of forms. Do you spar as well?

Incidentally I never suggested using the rising arm of Pao to grasp, I suggested using it for imbalancing and for striking.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 03:34 am: Edit Post

Agreed, Ed - I was admittedly trying to be somewhat literal to get my point across about the "blocking" aspect of Paoquan (and other "blocks" in Xingyi)

Any individual fist can vary/change in it's application, as you suggest. As well, no form would ever hope to be completely used in fighting - it would evolve as necessary.
It's the way the wu quan can flow together and change when needed, that makes Xingyi such a great system.

Yi uses Xing in whatever way required in the situation presented. As truly stated - 5 fists = "1,000 changes"

I am not currently sparring - I am in Zhejiang, my teacher is in Henan and my wushu brothers are in Xiamen and Shanghai. These days, we only get together infrequently, so I usually only work on "the basics" every day (which will take me the rest of my life)


   By qui chu ji (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 05:41 am: Edit Post

sleepydragon,
I am guessing you practiced Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen. From what source did you learn. Plus you said block/hit in your post meaning an attack and covering motion performed at the same time. As opposed to a defencive movement. At least that is how I read it anyway. Is there any movements like a bong sau,larrp sau combo or a gum sau, huen sau combo in xingyi. I prefer these to simple pak sau punch (parry and hit movements).

Xi Feng,
Still on the hard training schedule or have you slacked off a bit, since last time we spoke. Hebei style xingyi quan sounds great and I am really looking forward to learning some this summer.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 07:55 am: Edit Post

Hi Qui,

With the long days, it's up at 0430 and practice at 0500 in the cool of the morning. No practice later in the day - too hot around these parts in the summer - better to sit in the shade and drink cold beer!
Hope you will find a good Xingyi teacher in your parts - it's a life-time pursuit and I'm sure you will (first and always) enjoy its simplicity and ultimately, discover its depth and intricacy.


   By Bruce Leroy on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 12:08 pm: Edit Post

ahhh...

academics of martial arts is fascinating.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 09:57 pm: Edit Post

Hi Qui Chu Ji,
The Wing Chun I practice is Yip Man and Yuen Kay San(mostly favor the Yip Man side). I have never seen anything in Hsing I that resembles Bong Lap Da or Huen sao, the way you are thinking. The only think that remotely looks like a low bong sao is one move in the form called BaShi and it is more of a transitional move into the next move(did you follow that). You will see things that resemble gum sao, pak sao, tan sao- just not used in a trapping manner like wing chun. Hsing I is very simplistic in movement, so don't get bored. is an excellent art. Hsing I says "one should not be too intelligent"... meaning there is not alot of fluff etc. and you should take it for you will learn and be ready to practice the Five Fists thousands of times. However, it is an outstanding complement to Wing Chun Kuen.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 11:09 pm: Edit Post

Good advice there for you, Qui - nothing fancy about XingYi.

After thousands (and thousands) of repetitions of Pi~Zuan~Beng~Pao~Heng things can (and will) begin to make a lot of sense.

Then, once you can begin to combine them in the "mixed forms", things can (and will) really start to flow.

I see a lot of validity in the modern concept of the development of "motor engrams" when analyzing the training methods and results in XingYi.

Motor engrams = stored patterns of familiar motor actions - i.e. where movements become automatic

The principles of developing motor engrams are frequently used in modern (or ancient) sports - (whether people realize it or not). To achieve a high level in any sport, it's the constant and repetitive practice which ultimately allows the body to respond to certain situations automatically - in our instance - YI controlling and leading XING in a quickly developing and rapidly changing fight scenario.

Little did you realize that the creators and older generations of XingYi masters were actually cognitive neuroscientists.


   By Xi Feng (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:40 am: Edit Post

Here (FYI) is a much more complete description of the theory of motor engrams - and how (IMHO)it is absolutely appropriate to the theory and practice of XingYi - and other martial arts.

Hope you enjoy reading it - it works for me!

Motor Engrams - a simple and accurate explanation why rehearsal and thorough practice of a given movement is necessary, especially when the stakes are high in terms of risk, or in terms of performance during competition.

In psychological parlance, repeating movements (hundreds or thousands of times) while learning a technique is creating a pattern of nerve impulses which become ingrained in the memory; stored as a Motor Engram for that particular movement.

Engrams contain the directions required to reproduce living versions of movements stored in memory and act as packets of pre-set muscle instructions to reproduce particular movements.

Utilization of motor engrams may allow the individual to perform so that the effects of fatigue cannot undermine the ability to execute certain physical movements accurately.

One can replace thousands of conscious signals using engram memory to control movements and make it unnecessary to constantly monitor all kinesthetic feedback from the body. Without the need to send out corrected signals, it is possible to move more efficiently, more powerfully, and more accurately: More skillfully.

Use of motor engrams can free up mental and physical capacity so that even in difficult situations, it is still possible to oversee fatigue, timing, fear control, arousal and make adjustments to strategy, where difficult movements can be accomplished with a quiet mind and a sense of ‘not thinking about it.’

It is worth reminding ourselves that although practice (rehearsal) makes perfect, if the practice is poor or technically incorrect, then you will be rehearsing the wrong movement. Similarly, the development of a motor engram for that movement will only be beneficial if the technique is sound from an early point. The implications for coaching here are obvious.

So although the idea of motor engrams may be more psychologically orientated and scientific than we may wish - it might be worth considering that when we practice a movement over and again, or request it from our students, we are actually encouraging them to develop pre-set packages of muscle instructions for the reproduction of muscle movements, stored ready to use later as an engram!!

("Borrowed" from an online document by Martin Barry)


   By qui chu ji (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 04:51 am: Edit Post

Xi feng,
sounds like a lot of the stuff I lernt in skill acquisition and sports psychology for sports and exercise science. In uni I did some reaserch into the physiolological effects on the cardiovascular system of wing chun. but the skill acquisition stuff was mainly theory only.

Sleepydragon,
Thanks yeah I have always been taught bong sau as a transition, because if it is left up the arm can be manipulated easily. I have seen some Yuen Kay San stuff out of canada. It looks very different to Yip Man Style what are your thoughts from somebody who practies both varients. Is Chi sau practiced in the same way, the reason I ask is a story that modern chi sau as we know it was developed by Yuen Kay San, Yip Man and other wing chun guys from Foshan when they got together to practice at a local tea house.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 12:46 am: Edit Post

Qui Chu Ji,
There is a really cool website out of Canada called www.wingchunkuen.com there is a ton of information on all Wing Chun families. The chi sao in Yuen Kay San and Yip Man are basically the same when it comes to chi sao... I am sure each teacher may vary their opinion, which is natural, but they are the same because they both rely on sensitivity and seeking an open spot to strike, a jum sao is a jum sao, no matter which branch. The Yuen Kay San has kneeling side punches to the groin etc. That you dont see in Yip Mans style, but some say Yip Man knew them and found them not practical and removed them. The hand forms are different in appearance, but cover all the same moves that are in Yip style. If you are interested in Yuen Kay San wing chun, check out the website and buy Yuen Kay San Wing chun by Rene Ritchie, his book has brought out a much needed part of wing chuns past.

Good chatting.


   By Gunther Cervantes (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 01:08 pm: Edit Post

You Wing Chun freaks need to get your own forum and need to stop wasting space here.

Email yourselves if you want to chit chat like little old ladies.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:00 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for your input... it really added to the martial arts conversation.


   By qui chu ji (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:13 am: Edit Post

GC, If more martial disscussions were structured like this. the site would be a haven for the martial artists of the world. In which differences and similarities would be disscussed objectivly and people would genuinely learn from one another. However more often than not it decends into Name calling, style bashing and internet challenges. Like what you tried and failed to accomplish with your above post. I am sure real martial artists like myself and sleepydragon would not rise to your bait.


   By Bruce Leroy on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:16 pm: Edit Post

"a real martial artist like myself."

That's some funny . Qui you crack me up.


   By qui chu ji (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 05:37 am: Edit Post

When are you going to finish game of death properly. and whats with adding roy to the end of your name.


   By Bruce Leroy on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:44 am: Edit Post

Bruce

Le (The) Roy (King)


   By Michael Taylor on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 07:55 pm: Edit Post

Sleepydragon,

A buddy of mine got me into a two-day Kun Tao Silat seminar with "Uncle Bill" & one of his brothers (among other instructors)... each had a different style of Silat... Uncle Bill's Silat was much like Chinese Internal Art because he learned much from such artists... he also stated that he learned a lot from monkeys as well (& had the scars to prove it -- monkeys bite).

Uncle Bill's brother had an interesting Silat developed by a man that had only one normally-developed arm (the other being short/abnormally-developed)... in his style one hand is placed near the elbow/forearm of the other & reinforces the other arm's movements (makes 'em stronger)... the arms thus form a wedge that parries incoming blows & determines the angle of counter-attack... the footwork patterns are somewhat elaborate & left me scratching my head (as I'm a slow learner, esp. w/footwork).

Uncle Bill's knife instruction was great (note: Malaysian warriors often used poisoned blades... Uncle Bill didn't emphasize that as much as his brother did)... either way, the best knife fights are the ones that I'm not involved in... (c:}

P.S.: Meynard, this is about as long-winded as I get these days (no more super-long posts)... (c:}


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