I just watched a tape on Chinese Kuntao and Silat. There was some mention that Kuntao and some of the internal arts have alot of common techniques... namely Hsing I. Has anyone heard this before. Some of the techniques resembled pi, tzuann, and heng. The heng chuan was used to attack/strike the tricep and destroy the arm... I know destructions are used heavily in filipino and indonesian arts. I was curious if anyone has learned Hsing I in this way.

Sleepydragon,

Xingyiquan has "limb destruction" techniques, most notable in the Horse Form that includes fast, whip-like strikes to the opponent's lead hand and arm when he has his hands up in a guard position.

Tim,
Thanks for the reply. Is there any literature or videos showing Hsing I applications as destructions? I would like to learn Hsing I in this manner.

I am mainly a Wing Chun person and have always felt that any art based on limb destruction is a great form of self defense.

Thanks again...

I don't know of any.

Sleepydragon I thought you already knew xingyi ?

Hi Qui Chu Ji. I wish I could claim I knew everything about Hsing I... but I can't. Ouch... I think I hurt my ego there. I do know about 75% of the Hobei style~

sleepydragon,
do you think xingyi mixes well with wing chun do they use a lot of the same theory centre line etc. I would be interested in how a person with a background in wing chun found the training for xingyi as I shall be starting some xingyi soon.

Qui Chu Ji,
Absolutely! You will be suprised how much Hsing i and Wing chun have in common. The centerline theory, footwork, stance distribution etc. are very close. Hsing I has blocks/hits exactly like pak sao, gum sao, stamping palm etc. Even the animals share some of Wing Chun appearance in apps. The dragon- if you drill your right hand up to block, your right leg is drilling into the persons knee and then finish. It is basically the same thought of Tan da and nailing kick to the knee. Anyways, I could talk about this stuff for ever... But, yes they mix extremely well.

there are no blocks in xing yi. ???

A pretty uninformed opinion Meynard?
From what basis and knowledge do you state that Xingyi has no blocks?

The downward (opposite to striking) hand in Pi quan and and Zuan quan have blocking functions

The rising arm and fist (opposite) in Pao quan is a most obvious blocking move

The retreating sequence of fists in Wu Xing Xiang Ke (jinbu zuo beng quan - tuibu pao quan - tuibu zuo shunbu beng quan - tuibu you quan shang tiao)are all blocks

I won't even begin to list the blocking moves in the forms Wu Xing Lian Huan Quan... or Yao Xing Ba Shi... or Hei Hu Chu Dong... or Ji Xing Si Ba... or others...

And how about the large number of repeated blocking moves in long Za Shi Chui...

Any of these blocking moves can be used in a myriad of ways while attacking or defending, advancing or retreating.

I can certainly defer to your superior knowledge in Yanagi Ryu + Shen Wu + Pekiti Tirsia, Meynard...

But perhaps you could learn a bit more Xingyi before you offer such blatantly false and misleading statements as above.

There are no blocks, period. You want to block that's your problem. Not mine.

I'm not going into details, but you are wrong and I'm done with this thread.

Well, I actually get to lend support to Meynerd despite his general obnoxiousness. I've never seen a living, truly combat-oriented system that had moves designed primarily for "blocking". But of course, I could be mistaken.

It's easy to get into arguing over definitions; but I'll side with Meynard and Kenneth on this one. The few competent hsing-i variations that that I have seen use the five elements to attack the attacking limbs or body of the opponent as a means of defending and not as a technique to stop the initial attack as a precursor to counter-attacking.

It is very difficult -- if not impossible -- to stop a skilfull or committed attack by using the kind of "stop-and-go" defenses implied by the word blocking unless the opponent is playing by the same rules in a training hall setting.

There goes Meynard- prince of diplomacy.

intercepting is not that same as blocking.
I hate saying it- but 'blocking' is an 'external art' type of thing. 'Internal arts' don't use blocks.

Block, parry, lead... Everyone seems to be getting caught up in terminology. If you receive a punch and use Beng Chuan it is to A) cover your ribs and not get hit. B) to cause harm to your opponents arm and then strike. What would you call it? I bet some will say they lead it away from their ribs, others will say I blocked it and so on... But to say that there are no blocking moves offered in Hsing I... I agree with Xi Feng.
I wish I said Parry#@$

Hen duo bian hua... learn the five fists and there are a thousand (or some say 10,000) changes.

...advance and retreat.
...rise and fall.
...attack and defend.
...strike and block.

It's all fluidity and flow from one to another.
Doesn't really matter what name you use, if it's true Xingyi, it's always changing.

Xingyiquan contains and utilizes elements of both Yang and Yin, as do all the internal arts. To argue otherwise and say that there are no "blocks" is a difficult and unenviable task.

I think Meynard is defining the word "block" as using an equal or greater force to strike an incoming blow out of the air. In this case, he is correct, there are no "blocks" in Xingyiquan.

Of course, that doesn't mean you stand there and let an opponent hit you. Ducking, covering, absorbing, redirecting... are the terms commonly used, and they are fundamentally different from the concept of blocking in the above definition.

Thanks for your clarification Tim...
I guess sometimes the martial arts has to delve into the depths of semantics and lexicology (and the attending misunderstandings) to adequately explain certain concepts.
Even so, I still might continue that in Pao quan, the hand opposite the striking fist spirals and rises with considerable (i.e. "equal or greater") force and could arguably be considered a "block"

Thanks for your response Tim. It takes someone with your years of teaching experience to word it properly. I agree... the word block is usually interpreted as "batting away with force", which is not found in Xing Yi or Wing Chun.

I must repeat my thanks, Tim, for your inspiration to actually investigate the concepts of "blocking" in my morning practice. You provided my with an opportunity to be analytical in an area of my practice where I usually just "go with the flow"

My observations on Pao Quan... I can still only interpret the rising forearm, held horizontally, fist outward... as a "block". I guess the amount of force used and it's application will still be open to individual interpretation.

In Wu Xing Xiang Ke - it is my interpretation of the application of tui bu you quan shang tiao as a "block" The right forearm horizontal, fist facing down, and is raised (with force) to "block" an incoming strike

In Wu Xing Lian Luan Quan... in the first action of bao guo shi, the right arm is held vertically, fist up and facing inward. The forearm crosses the body (with force)as you turn to the left and forms a powerful "block" to an opponent's strike on the left.

In Yao Xing Ba Shi... in the second move of yao zi fan shen, the left fist is striking downward (with force) at a level at, or below the left knee. Unles the opponent has unfortunately placed his head, or torso, below my knee... I interpret this action as a "block"

In Hei Hu Chu Dong... the ending of the move jin ji shang jia uses the right arm, open hand, palm in, thumb up in a rising action (with force). Although it could potentially be used as a strike, with the forearm, I can also interpret this as a "block"

In Ji Xing Si Ba... the opening series of moves - zuo you zong bu qian - are a series of four open handed "strikes" extending forward and downward (with force)to knee level. (they are not strikes to the groin) Unless the opponent is putting his head or torso below my knee, I interpret these moves as "blocks"

In Za Shi Chui... the move tui bu gai zhou uses the left forearm rising horizontally (with force), fist facing down. Once again, I can only interpret this as a "block" in my retreating moves.

And these are only the forms I am familiar with... there are others which might undoubtedly offer similar examples of "blocks"

Besides those above... I could probably list quite a few other "grey areas"... where depending on the ebb and flow of the action, certain movements could either be used, or construed to be... "blocks"

But then... I realize these may be hard to visualize and accept - a person could refute the whole shebang with a few of their own "interpretations" and use of "language".

Whatever... I hope my narrow perspective and my humble opinions have shed some light on this seemingly contentious topic?

However you might choose to interpret and utilize XingYi - it's a great system.