Is Beng Quan an effective attack in a fight or tournament? I've never seen it executed.

How do you distinguish beng quan from a straight lead hand punch, or a rear hand straight punch?

In training sure you can see a difference easily, but in a tournament?

I've certainly seen, thrown, and received straight punches in tournaments. Don't know if they were Beng Quan though.

Ovad,
My fighters use Beng Quan quite frequently when they spar and fight. Like Ed pointed out, Beng is a type of straight punch, and straight punches are common to virtually every MA.

If you've ever watched Xingyiquan practitioners sparring, it's hard to believe you've never seen a Beng Quan thrown.

link to a video clip of applying Hsing Yi Chuan Beng chuan
fist technique in a fight-contact sanda match a few years ago.

http://www.blacktaoist.com/Beng%20applic.html

That was Sifu Hill I believe. Notice, he threw three in a row, the last felling his opponent.

Actually I think that was Novell Bell a.k.a. "Blacktaoist".

I just watched the clip. Even me, an external practioner (who is trying to apply internal methods to his techniques) can easily tell that the punches in the thrown by "Blacktaoist" were certainly not regular punches. The power obviously was generated in the hip/lower torso region. Quite interesting to watch in action.

Those were regular punches.

If they were regular punches then the hips/lower torso would not have come into play nearly as much as it did. A regular punch looks different. If it was a regular punch then the hips would have only acted as a pivot.

Watch the power generated in the hips flow into the upperbody and through the shoulders into the arms and finally into the opponent. Its a very fluid motion. Not mystic chi power but correct body alignment and using the entire body to punch.

I don't know what kind of country bumpkin you are but those are common every day regular punches to me.

You need to get out more.

The first two looked like what I've seen of beng quan on other sites, but in the last one that felled his opponent one can clearly see his trailing foot is off the ground. Isn't that foot supposed to come down in a crushing step upon contact, or am I missing the point of beng quan dynamics?

I too thought that the last strike was questionable so I watched the clip a few more times. I watched his feet closely for all 3 of his punches. He raised his weight off his rear foot for EVERY punch. You can't see his foot on the first punch he throws but his rear leg lifts just like the other two punches so I think his back foot was on its toes. The second punch, if you watch closely (the angle, poor lighting, and internet quality video make it hard to see) is performed with his rear heel lifted from the floor about as much as it does during his last punch.

I'm not sure of the mechanics for Beng Quan so he may be doing it wrong. Notice how he lifts his heel just before impact and not as early as a boxer normally would. He is generating the punching power in his hips/lower torso and putting his full body behind the punch. Maybe its not a "real" beng quan but he does seem to be putting interal principles into the punches.

I read some of his stuff on the website and I laughed my ass off. Some of the articles by internal masters are chi-hugger propoganda but his articles slam chi-huggers. He also says that any teacher who doesn't perform techniques properly during "real" fighting (free sparring, ect.) are not qualified to teach in his opinion. If he isn't performing beng quan properly then would he not be "qualified" to teach?

Kenneth,
I can sum it up... he won.

Seriously though... everyone knows that the way you train and the way you may end up fighting has a chance of looking different.

I remember one time at a tournament... I saw a guy fighting fluid and graceful, and it was obvious he had alot of skill. I asked him what style he did and he said Tai Chi. I later saw him do his form and it was like cement.

Short, but well-put, sleepy.

Sleepy Dragon, you just nailed it. The first goal of martial arts is to defeat your opponent. Thats what they were designed to do. Kick some butt on the battle field.

During the heat of battle, it takes someone with skill and deep understanding of his techniques to be able to modify them to the situation so that they are effective on his opponent.

"Blacktaoist" is certainly qualified to teach even though some of his statements are a little silly to me. He can apply his martial skill. His opponent was another highly trained martial artist.

I wonder how he'd do against the Pink Taoist in a fight.

Peace

I have a question:
How many of you think that a real fight is set up just like a movie fight?
A stupid question I know, but for those that think that that strike is supposed to be done as it's seen in a form or better yet a picture, ya got a long way to go.

If a picture is what your looking for than explain Zhang Zhao Dong's San Ti posture and the pictures of the early Masters of Xing-I. It's not done in the 60-40 stance that we see today.

Anyway, The technique was Beng Chuan, and it was modified for the situation. I'd love to see anyone apply Beng Chuan with the weight on the back leg consecutivly against a retreating opponent. I say it can't be done!
And that's exactly what ya'll saw. Now if his opponent had been advancing or had been stationary, Yes, I see the technique on the back leg.

When it comes down to it, it all depends on your training, if you train for a good amount of time and you embody what you've trained, anything you do works.

Peace

I believe it's possible to deliver Bengquan to an opponent that is moving back while still kepping a 60/40 structure.

Hill Bey, Mont had addressed the concept of modifying a technique to fit the current situation, but I see your point about the weighting. In taijutsu, rear-weighted postures were generally for retreating, though nothing was written in stone and there were exceptions depending on the situation. What is Zhang Zhao Dong's san ti posture like? The reason I ask is that from descriptions, I always thought the "feel" of san ti was similiar to okinawan karate's sanchin stance (wich is more even-weighted). In vol 2 of "Warriors of Stillness: Tao of Yiquan", the writer states that the 2 postures look different, but are used for the same purpose and have the same feel. I thought I'd point that out as many on this board seem unfamiliar with true okinawa-te.

Peace

(Machaoqiang Tadzio)
You really belieave that you can do continuous Beng Quan on an opponent that is retreating from you while keeping the 60/40 posture?????

Sorry man, You'll have to show it too me because that's a bunch of crap. Not simply because I can't do it, it would take a type of refinement that doesn't exist today except in the old masters that are one foot out of the grave, so they couldn't even demonstrate it for us.

Kenneth,

Zhang Zhao Dong's posture is hardly a 60/40 stance, he's not sunk that much either. It looks to me to be about a 55/45 distribution and it's much longer and expanded. If I remember right In Sun Lu Tang's book there is a picture of him in an expanded version as well. I might be wrong and I don't have excess to my books right now so if anybody has it let me know.

As for the comparison, I read that book as well, but I was told this by Either one of BP Chan's or William CC Chen's student's Years ago. I don't know if I agree, being that I don't do okinawin styles but I have 3 cousins that All had Black belts in thier systems and we always trained when we were young and compared what we did and it sure seems different, but I was a teenager then and really don't remember it's usage. As for the weight distribution, it always seemed to be a 90/10 split the way they did it.

Peace