• Archive through February 01, 2005 February 01 - 05:03 pm [20]

Ken,
A Tan Sao is not an elbow break. Do you mean Jip Sao, this is where (ex.) the left palm is rising and the right palm is lowering, as found in the Chum Kiu form, that is meant for an elbow break/control.

David,
Good points and well said. You actually hit it dead on in re to Wing Chun. It was created out of much reasoning etc. As far as it being tested. It was put to the test by Bruce Lee, Wong Shum Leung and a ton of other Hong Kong roof top fighters. That's how it became so popular in Hong Kong... Yip Mans students were whipping butt.

I am actually suprised it didnt fair well in the UFC. However, alot of Wing Chuns arsenal would not be allowed in the ring, maybe that contributed to it not being as effective as it was created to be.

Are any limb attacks allowed (destructions)?

Rich,
The fights I mentioned were in the early UFC's back when they were more "style vs. style" oriented. They should all be available to rent.

Another Wing Chun fighter in MMA was Rickson Gracie's opponent in the first Pride Fighting Championship event. He was a huge white guy, I can't remember his name offhand.

Rich, yes I do mean Tan Sao, a wrapping of one's arm over and around an opponent's elbow to break it as your hand comes up (or take him down). This usage isn't taught in the Yip Man chain schools, I don't think. I saw it used that way by a chinese WC guy who was visiting my teacher many years ago. It seemed "harder" than what I'd seen of WC up to that time, with lots of stand-up grappling applications of typical WC moves. Up until that time, I had only seen Yip Man WC, but since then I've learned there are other "styles".

Kenneth,
I know the technique you are talking about. Not arguing with what you saw, but that is not a "tan sao". The tan sao is a dispersing hand(beggar hand) and is used to receive incoming force and re direct it.

However, there are many many many Wing Chun styles, some have even added Hung Gar over the years, so if it works~.

Since then, I've also met a couple of white eyebrow practitioners who also ascribe the elbowlock usage to their "tan sao". But what's in a name?
A friend of mine has an old video of Pan Nam WC bil jee form, but all the spearhands are actually palm strikes, and the elbow strikes are arm-lock takedowns. Our Hakka Kuen was softer, though, and our tan sao was generally like what you describe.

Kenneth,
I have all the Pan Nam WC vcds, they are pretty good. Not many people know this, but Yip Man style also uses the elbow strikes for locking the other persons elbow or break their grab.

Anyways,
Back to the original posting. I have read alot of Dempseys boook and really like it. It is ironic that I read this book and my friend that does boxing has talked me into joining his boxing gym. I am not overly interested in boxing for self defense(although I know it is good). I am more interested in the training to get in top fighting shape and I have to admit the footwork is great.

Tim, what part of the fist do you prefer to make contact with?

Hi all, do any of ya'll know where I can get a copy of Dempsey's book? That link above doesn't work (get a "page unavailable" message), and on Amazon the book is $150(!!!). BTW, it's this book that y'all are talking about?

Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense

The link has been changed. New link ....

http://www.iron-body.com/dempseybook/

Kenneth,
We normally only punch to the body. Ideally, contact is made with the big knuckles in direct line with the forearm. The primary concern is holding the wrist correctly.

Tim, what is the correct way to hold the wrist?

I've found that the typical MA school's top of horizontal fist/fore-arm in a straight line is hard on my wristbones, but I think you guys at shenwu favor the vertical fist?

We hold the fist in its natural alignment with the forearm (not bent upward or downward) and the back of the hand flush with the wrist/forearm.

Tim, don't you find that to align the big knuckles with the forearm (as you mentioned above) you have to bend the fist downward a little?

Just enough to make the back of the hand level with the forearm.

try doing push-ups on your knuckles- you'll quickly figure out the correct alignment for punching.

I think I misunderstood Tim's description of "not bent upward or downward". I was thinking of a vertical fist, not a horizontal one.

When I do knuckle pushups all my knuckles take the weight and it feels structurally strong. Pushups on the 2 big knuckles feels structurally weak, so is it really a good idea to strike with these knuckles?

No, it's not a good idea to strike with the two big knuckles.

Knowing that the smaller knuckles are most often those broken, I started rolling my fist while doing pushups with a 'vertical' fist. First five were on 1 and 2, then rolled to 2 and 3 for another five, then 3 and 4, etc. Hav'nt done this for a while but believe I did this only on carpeted surfaces.

I'm not claiming to be a good, closed-fist striker, nor am I claiming I'm a bad-ass push-upper... but I do mine on a plain wood floor.

If I do them wide, my fist is horizontal (thumb side towards my chest). If I do them narrow, the fist is vertical (thumb side towards my shoulders).

Plus, there's Tim's special Xing Yi, single fisted push ups... but I haven't tried them off of the mat.

Having done knucle push ups so much- I can't understand how folks can condone rolling the fist out of alignment to increase power.

I don't do knuckle pushups to develop punching power- I do knuckle pushups because my wrists are cruddy.

Shane

hi tim,

i read that bare knuckle boxing was very similar to xingyi in theory and form, is this true? when and why did it change to its present form?

Mozart,

Although there are similarities (I suppose there are only so many ways to strike someone without padding) my exposure to bare knuckle boxing is only what I have read and illustrations in old manuals. I don't see the two arts as too similar in form, closer in theory maybe, and sharing some common basic techniques (strikes and takedowns).

Boxing changed to its present form with the introduction of the glove (allowing full power punches to the head with little fear of injury) and the Marquis of Queensbury rules (prohibiting throwing, making some of the old techniques illegal, regulating rounds...).

I'm sure there are others reading that are much more familiar with the history of boxing than I am.

tim, i read an account of a book written in the last century by one of the last bare knuckle boxers, and he stated that power should come from the muscles of the back and legs. sounds a lot like xingyi, yet modern boxers don't talk about issuing power in this manner. did gloves change the manner in which boxers generate punching power? i know that gloves are responsible for the way boxers guard, move, etc., but i would have though that power generation would remain the same.

Don't forget about the bouncy stretch-canvas of the ring floor.

Does anyone have the pdf with chapter 16b on it?, unfortunately it is missing from the link. Also does anyone have a copy of pages 40 and 41 which are also missing in the pdf copies linked in this thread. Thanks.