Hi Tim,

I know a lot has been asked already about the Di Lung Jin already but I have seen you have given a seminar on xing yi ground fighting technqiues.
Is there any chance you will do a book on the subject of Di Lung Jin?
I already have got the other books you have published (I cherish especially the Nei Gong book, one of the best Martial Arts books I have in my library, bar none).
But don't you think a book on an almost forgotten part of the art would be very helpfull in safekeeping this part for the future generations?

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Hi Johan,

There aren't enough techniques to write a book on the Xingyiquan ground fighting techniques. The method is used to defend yourself when you are knocked down and your opponent is still standing. It is relatively simple and limited to a few basic techniques (at least as I learned). There is no "ground fighting" in the sense of wrestling on the ground. If this is your area of interest, I recommend you investigate Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Hi Johan

The Kung Fu style I studied in Bedford in the early 80's Feng Shou (Hand of the Wind/Whirlwind Fist) had many, many ground fighting techniques I'm not sure how many but it was a lot!

Anyhow the Chinese Ground Fighting Stuff I studied seem to be lots of fixed routines with separate counters taught for each move. It was good stuff however it was taught as fixed routines more like Aikido is taught as opposed to so much freestyle or comprehensive stuff like Judo or BJJ. I've heard Hsingi has groundfighting but never come across it in my travels.

It would be nice to see a book researching/showing the Neijia concepts from the Big 3 arts Taiji/Bagua/Hsingi for groundfighting... and if anyones the man to research this or come up with the goods I bet Tim is the best man for the job (hint, hint)

Kind Regards

Jay

Hi guys,

Yep Tim would be the best man for such an undertaking.
It is not so much I am interested in groundfighting (I practice and teach jujutsu, not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - which I do think is superb) but I am mostly interested in the groundfighting techniques of Xing Yi (a system which I have trained in and occasionally still do).
More out of a historical viewpoint I guess.
I understand your point, if a part of a system has only very few techniques you can't write a whole book on it.
On the other hand, Tim, the few techniques with the addidtion of a few historical photo's could make a superb article couldn't it? As in on your website?
I remember seening an English language magazine on traditional Chinese Martial Arts, maybe more than ten years ago. It had an article on groundfighting (I think it was Xing Yi) in it there was a colorphoto of an old Chinese master (with grey drooping moustache and all, wearing a blue tracksuit)He was on the ground scissoring a standing attacker.

Unfortunately I don't have the magazine any more or even the title.

Tim, if you read this, your eyelids are getting heavy and you fall asleep and when you wake up you will find yourself in a strange way wanting to write an article on Xing Yi groundfighting.
You're eyelids are getting heavier.
article....article....there's an article you want to write...

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Jason:
Clifford Gibbs taught Aikido in Luton in the early 70s. When Kung Fu became popular (Bruce Lee era) he changed his name to Chee Soo and 'Hand of the wind' was born. some of his students split away and created 'Whirlwind Fist', which is still practised by a few people, with forms like 'poison hand' etc. It's largely made up nonsense and the reason some of it looks loke aikido is because it is aikido.

Bawahhaha...lol !

Hi Kung fu Pete

Your facts seem to differ from the History I've been aware of.

Anyhow nonsense or not the training was arduous and the conditioning was a nightmare ! The Bedford club had lots of tuff students, it was a tuff enough style not to be underestimated.

Kind Regards

Jay

Chee Soo never invented his own Chinese Style. The style is from authentic "Chinese" origination.

At the age of 14, Chee Soo was introduced by a Mr Chan Kam Lee (from Shandong Province, a province famous for its martial arts) to the Feng Shou (Hand of the Wind) system of Kung Fu, and Shuai Chiao (Chinese Wrestling).

Chee Soo's Kung Fu skills in the Feng Shou system included acheivement in learning Chin Na, Shou Shu, Shua Jiao, Chang Shou, Tu Shou, Chi Chang, Chuan Shen, Wu Lien Haupan, Chung Mien, Ch'a Pei, Ch'i Shou, Pei Yueshu, An Chu, Hau Yeushu, Ch'i Shu, Juan Shou, Jia Shu, Shen Chi, Wu Chi - Kuai Chang Shu, Ch'iang Shu, Tao Shu, Hsiech'ien, Laoyaing Chao, Kepochou Ch'iang, Fenghuang Yengching, Pao Ch'uan, Laohu T'ou, San Hsing Kang Ling not to mention She, Ying, Mao, Hao, Laoying, Ma, Laohu, Hsuing & Kou Boxing and many other aspects of the art.

Chee Soo also achieved high level degrees in Aikido and Judo in London in the 1940's in the late 50s he switched his dedication to promoting the little known family style of Kung Fu Feng Shou. In 1958 Chee Soo formed the British Wu-Shu Association.

"Chee Soo also achieved high level degrees in Aikido and Judo in London in the 1940's "

Actually Aikido was not taught in the UK at all until 1957 so I'm a little sceptical of a 'high level degree' in Aikido being learned in London. One of my Aikido Senseis told me when I first got my Dan grade to....'be aware of what your students will claim for you'.....
I mean no criticism at all of Chee Soo and I'm quite sure his martial ways are excellent but inaccuracies can raise questions and raise doubts (usually quite unnecessarily)

Declan

Here's a clip of an article by Lavinia (Cliffor Gibbs AKA Chee Soo's Daughter)

Once settled in London (late 1945) Chee Soo started practising the Japanese arts of Judo, Aikido and Kendo. With all these arts he obtained very high grades. His training was with many distinguished names, including Kenshiro Abbe and the Otani brothers. They were frequent visitors to Chee's house in London, not only as Instructors but also as friends. His training started at the Budokai where he excelled in Judo; this was largely due to his previous Chinese martial arts training.

Jason,
I don't get along to this message board very often so apologies for the delay in replying. There are Websites which detail the history of Aikido in the UK in quite some depth (e.g. http://www.geocities.com/BritishAikido/index.htm)and in which it is stated that Kenshiro Abbe arrived in London in 1955. He then waited for permission to teach Aikido before teaching an invited group at the 'Hut' dojo (hence the 1957 date)all of whom were experienced martial arts students and all of whom took some years to reach 'High Grades'.If Chee Soo achieved a 'Very High Grade' in Aikido prior to anyone else in the UK then that would be new information for most of us Aikidoka.
At the end of the day This stuff matters very little and has no reflection on the man himself or the styles he practiced but even minor inaccuracies can give detractors ammunition . I would suggest you have a look at the website listed above and make up your own mind about whether or not the dates are right. This thread was originally about Xing Yi Quan (one of my other passions in martial arts besides Aikido, the other is Pencak Silat) and I would suggest we are better served getting back to it.

I wish you all the very best in your training....

Declan

Maybe the dates may differ, I recall the article being Judo was one of the first arts studied after the Feng Shou... anyhow for what it's worth I trained in the Whirlwind Fist branch of Hand of the Wind Kung Fu in Bedford for a brief period in the early 80's and from what I remember the chin-na and shuai jiao was of the highest level I've seen, and I've seldom seen much to match it since!

Hi

I'm trying to find out more about Whirlwind Fist. I've tried to Google it etc, but can't seem to find anything! Any help/advice appreciated.

Cheers

Hello all,
Interesting thread, there is no doubt that master Chee Soo excelled in Martial Arts, however the roots of Feng Sau remain dubious as evidence remains anecdotal, and no written or pictorial proof has been put forward that lee Chan Kam ever existed. Apart from what Chee Soo has put down on paper there is no way of varifying or checking sources other than that. That style is non existant anywhere else in the world, even in china.
It has been known for quite a while that the Lee Style shares many similiarities with the Wu style in its form. Claims in Master Soo's book on Tai Chi that the style is over 2000 years old is also 'out there' with the theory of 'son's of reflected light' space alien story who taught the Chinese massage techniques, resipies and hand to hand combat.
Anyhoo the lee style has been an insentive for thousands of people to explore other martial arts, so that can't be a bad thing..

what about Whirlpool fist?

I reckon that is a good thing...as long as those people explore other martial arts and find out Dr John Bif Painter, PHD & Honorary Texas Wildcat Ranger invinted the 2,000 year old Lee family history.

Bob#2
(6th Omega Level)

Do Omega Level practicioners get to wear the Coveted Bagua Beret with big 80's HK mafia sunglasses and camouflage utilities? If not, when ?

don't be silly. Any dweeb can wear the berett and sunglasses with camouflage utilities. But the 5th Omegas and above make them look deadly.

Hey hold on a sec,
This is a serious thread, and you are out of order !!
I like what Julie Simpson has said.
I did train under Chee Soo in Dunstable for about 3 months, but found that he was full of stories that were 'colourful' and basically full of ••••, I returned to the warm embrace of Wado Ru Karate, which at least had some way of showing you an art that you could defend yourself with.
I have met people who knew Chee Soo who warned me not to lend him money or buy stuff from, and he was alway's changing his name !!!!!!

Keith, you are full of it!!!
How do I know?
You can't even spell the name of your own style of Karate correctly!!!!

Right on Fatboy

xxxx Juile