Two-man practice in XY

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Two-man practice in XY
   By D. Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 02:59 am: Edit Post

Is there any good book or internet-site on two-man practice like wuxingquan-drills and Xingyi-tuishou? I would like to (read: have a deep urge to) learn more on this subject.

If you wouldnīt mind, please describe your favourite practice! :-)

Thanks!


   By Michael Andre Babin on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:00 am: Edit Post

You can't learn applications from a book -- no matter how many photos are used. The soul of applications lies in the subtle and gross movements between the frozen moments in time that can be shown on paper or on a screen. On the other hand, photos can be of some use to those who are also learning the methods from a competent teacher.

Videos or films are better for such purposes -- but not much -- unless you have a great deal of relevant experience.


   By Brian Kennedy on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 05:48 pm: Edit Post

That is absurd, of course you can learn applications from a book. What is the great deep mystery of fighting that can not be captured on film or by verbal description?

Two outstanding applications books are:
Effortless Combat Throws (which has lots of good throwing counters to standard street attacks)
Practical Chin Na by Zhao Da Yuan

And to prove my point I will, at no charge, teach an application using words only. Here we go:
Technique:
Some dude jabs you in the face
Drill (tsuan) your hands up
Grab his jabbing hand and yank it down
With your other hand nail him in the head with Pi (splitting palm).
Main Points:
yank his hand as hard as you can
put as much power/mustard/juice/chi as you can into the Pi quan.

Got it?
take care,
Brian

That was not so hard to describe.


   By D. Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 06:55 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, but Michael, you didnīt understand what I am looking for. Not applications, I know enough of this. I want some kind of practice like drills and tui shou. I do not mean applications by this. Do you understand? Can I be more clear?

Is it not strange that there is no one here that can introduce these kind of exercises for XY? I know a few "two-man wuxingquan drills", but I havenīt seen anyone in the books I have read. I think it would be most strange if most of XY-practitioners do not have any means of practicing XY together.

Here is something my friend did show me: http://media.putfile.com/xing-yi


   By Michael Andre Babin on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 09:05 pm: Edit Post

A beginner cannot easily learn hsing-i (or any) two-person drills from a book and photos unless there is another person there who knows more about the drills than the beginner -- in which case they don't need the book as much.

Brian is right that you can learn simple applications from a verbal description or a book; however, I don't think the same is true of two-person drills that are specific to a particular style and that is what I was referring to in my earlier post.


   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 11:40 pm: Edit Post

And further Brian is wrong. There is no way one could gather how the shenfa is actually done even with the example he gave. Frankly, I found it useless. Brian, how does your example differ from any other sort of MA? You learned yours from a book, but it's not Xingyi shenfa. Maybe you should ask Ken, or your good buddy Dave C. Pffffft.


   By Yan Chen (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 01:06 am: Edit Post

girls, please! For followers of the internal arts, you all seem to have much ego! D. Borg, if you have experience with some MA, especially if it is one of the so called internal styles, then play and experiment to form your own drills using the principles you have learned.
We all want to follow someone else, but perhaps you will learn more through experience for yourself. The methods we follow today are still in existence largely because they have worked. If you try an attack, what does your partner feel they need to do to counter. Work slowly, one step at a time. Be patient, record what works and what doesn't. This way you will develop a real feeling for what you feel comfortable with. Despite the fables, it is likely that anything learned in a 'dream' by the ancients, was practiced and tested in life before defeating 100 bandits.


   By D. Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 02:46 am: Edit Post

Yan Chen, yes you are right in your approach. We also like to play with the five fists in a very free manner. What I wanted was just some inspiration and new thoughts about this kind of practice. Thats all. But I must say, that I would feel a little bit annoyed if there is no one who knows a good book nor has any own experience about this. If this is the case, it would truly show that the people here just talk a lot and has much ego. :-).

Why I wanted to ask this question was to see what kind of response I could get. And as I feared, there is no response at all. This will just prove my thoughts that the Xingyi practitioners are extremely limited in terms of different ways of practicing their art! I think this is sad. Xing Yi has become something that you only learn for a semester or two. If you know the five element fist and the twelve animals, than you know the whole art. And sometimes you can learn this in only a couple of weekends. I think this is wrong. You always need to get new feedback, more inspiration and also, you need to try to look at your art in many different ways. Without this, you will develop very slow in your art, if you will achieve any development at all.

So why donīt you try to give each other some new thoughts and inspiration? :-)


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:43 am: Edit Post

D.Borg
Some good points on training and I have only been working on Five Elements training in one style, without frequent enough correction over the years, so will not be able to offer much technical advice to anyone connected to a good teacher of xingyiquan.

However, I have found that experimentation, a bucket of sweat, a good training partner or two and a few bruises and injuries are essential to understanding any aspect of the applications of xingyi or any art. And no one is so good that they can't benefit from regular corrections or advice from someone who knows more about the subject!

As to learning and practising applications, you first have to have had enough "hands-on" with a good teacher to make the most of your potential to understand any internal art as a form of combat as opposed to a form of wishful-hinking or a game of "tag".

From what I have seen, there is such low overall martial quality in the modern internal martial arts because too many people are learning from books and videos and creating their own applications without having spent enough time either studying formally or getting into enough real fights (or both).

However, since you seem to want books ... in English, the Crandall translation of Sun Lutang's book on xingyiquan shows a variety of line drawings of application sets and Liang Shuyou & Yang Jwing-ming's book on xingyi also has many photos on applications.


   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 07:11 pm: Edit Post

Borg. I have experienced the same thing on this forum where there are many replies which talk around the question (and may be of value) but don't answer the question.

Sometimes, just seeing a couple applications can really open ones eyes to discovering others on your own. Good luck in your search.


   By Russell on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 03:49 pm: Edit Post

D. Borg,

This book has a couple of two person forms though no elaborate explanation of them:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0870409425/sr=8-1/qid=1145648678/ref=sr_1_1/102 -5244364-7133724?%5Fencoding=UTF8


   By Stephen Ott on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 11:50 am: Edit Post

I bought a VCD with a two person form on it and it was fine. The folks in the VCD's look like they're not exactly first rate people, but anyone with a basic understanding of the fists and what they're supposed to do will get it. Actually getting to the point where you can skillfully use it all, I think, requires a teacher. But that's me.


   By marc daoust on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 01:57 am: Edit Post

man i'm way behind with the technology stuff,
i don't even know what a VCD is?
but if you have a training partner you might as well be drilling or sparring!
just my opinion.
yen chen, now a days it would be 100 criminals,thugs
or sex offenders(100 of those and you'll wish they would just kill you!)
ps.i think you can learn application in a book
but to get good at it,practice is the key.
but that's me,i'm more a visual type.


   By Jake Burroughs on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 12:50 pm: Edit Post

D Borg
I have a number of things on video from Tim's teachings, but they are not available to the general public. Henry Look has a Xing Yi push hands Vid out
www.guanpingyang.org but I have yet to see it. I believe it is a seminar he did somewhere.
George Sharp is supposed to be coming out with a XY push hands vid soon, but not sure when.
Outside of that you are SOL. I have yet to see any good videos of XY in general let alone two person stuff. Also keep in mind that it will all vary depending on the teacher and style.
My suggestion......... save a few bucks up and get some privates with Tim.
Cheers
Jake


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