Tim,

The in the Hebei Xing Yi that I have been taught, whenever we form a fist it is always the "Mind Fist"--which is what most CMA call the "Phoenix Eye"--though we are told to practice once in a while using a regluar fist also. My question is, how practical is this fist for full contact fighting or self-defense. It sure hurts like hell, but I have never cut loose with it full power (or for that matter recieved a hit with it full power) even on a soft target because I worry about injuring the index finger. On the other hand, Dan Docherty tells a story about a friend who was fighting full contact and couldn't hurt his opponent with body blows, so he switched to the "Phoenix Eye" fist and dropped the guy. The reason I ask is that, if the "Mind Fist" is the exception of how to form a fist rather than the rule, I think I'll practice more with a regualar fist. But, if it is that much more effective to the body, I'll practice it more. Whatcha think, Tim?

Thanks,

Darren

I just noticed that I may have been unclear. Some CMA also call the middle, or "F#!@ you!" finger-knuckle the Pheonix Eye. I mean the first/index finger-knuckle.

Hi Darren,

I've seen people emphasize extending the index knuckle when practicing Beng Quan, my teachers taught the strike with a regular fist. Of course the idea of extending a knuckle is to focus the force of the blow into a smaller surface area, it makes sense, but I've never seen it applied full force for real with any special effect. The problem with extended index knuckle strikes is that the force of the blow (provided you can hit hard) collapses the knuckle back flush with the other knuckles at impact (try it on a heavy bag).

There is also the idea of hitting very small, vulnerable targets with the focused point of the extended index knuckle. This degree of accuracy I think is also very difficult when actually fighting.

When you punch with a regular fist, you also focus the force in the knuckles, but since the force transfers through the big knuckles, they will not give like the middle knuckles.

All martial art systems seem to have things like the "phoenix eye fist", Strange little things that hurt a lot. Aikido has one you see a lot, when holding someone in a pin with their arms stretched out, you rub your knuckles across the arm just above the elbow, below the triceps, it hurts like fire, but really never something I'd stop and do in the middle of a fight.

I think all those little things (pushing in on the upper lip, bending fingers, using small pokey fists, pushing on special particularly painful points, etc.) were never meant to be used in actual fighting, but were instead used to torture people after the fighting was over, or to get someone who you pretty much had under control to be more cooperative (like when six cops are holding a guy, but the guy will not put his arm behind his back). It's easy to find a special painful point when you have someone basically under control, but much harder when they are free to hit you back.

Also in a real fight you have so much adrenaline pumping that anything short of stopping their functionality (braking something, holding something, putting them to sleep or dazing them) isn't going to do much. I got in a fight at a party a couple of months back, I threw the guy and was punching him on the ground, he moved his head, and I slammed my fist full force into concrete, I didn't really even feel it at the time. It didn't start hurting for about another half hour. It's still not quite right now, but at the time it didn't stop me from punching him some more. If my hand smashing into concrete didn't’t stop me, a phoenix eye fist or any other pressure point strike would probably not do anything at all.

-Chris Hein

Good for the soft parts of the bodies. Neck, Underarms, And my Favorite...the Stomach area. Do it right and in theory you can cause the bladder to express. I've also been taught the phoenix fist is can be used to split ribs on the side. I think this is all easier said than done though.

Chris made a good point. In the CMA, "point" striking, the striking or pressing of small, vulnerable points is included in the major category of "Chinna" holding and locking technques.

The Chinese fighters also realized the odds of you incapacitating an angry, resisting opponent by striking small targets with special fist configurations in the heat of a real fight was next to impossible.

Striking or applying pressure to small, vulnerable points when you have an opponent pinned or in a controlling hold is much higher percentage.

Charles,
What was the effect when you actually struck someone full force with a Phoenix Eye fist in one of the targets you mentioned?

Well, with the neck you kind of dig and twist where the jaw meets the skull, and frankly I felt about ot pass out after just a demonstration not to mention it made me grind me teeth.

The stomache area, well I don't think anyones had it actually preformed on them anywhere near full force, but my instructor has again demonstrated it on me...You kind of dig at a downward angle at the last instant somewhere around the belly button area, and that was uncomfortable to say the least. We always call it the bladder buster.

My instructor was rough housing it with the karate instructor last year and got a phoenix eye fist to the rib and did come out with a fractured rib so I'd say that does actually work.

We do a 2 man form, ba din chin, and the first move starts off with a strike to the underarm. I've missed the block a few times and its just downright painful.

So I've only experienced a few and am passing on word of mouth for the others.

I'm always conditioning the index finger knuckle for phoenix fist used in beng chuan and others, for contact though I'd only use it on targets to the eye (precision target not much power, drilling fist), all the rest to gut, armpit, neck, groin.

Watch out for the chin-na counter where they grab the phoenix eye (index finger) and twist it the way it don't want to go... but you're not very good if that happens to you :?)... like in a wrist turn out, or in Aikido Kote Geish where they turn pressure palm pushin against the pheonix eye index finger, and cause it's locked it hurts... but you're not very good if that happens.

Charles,
the example you used with the neck/jaw aria, is a technique often applied in grappling when you are trying to apply a choke. It's used to make the person you are attempting to choke raise their chin. I think it's iffy at best. I've seen lots of mean people just sit there and take it. With some adrenaline pumping it's even less effective. As far as braking a rib goes, I think punching someone with a normal fist will work just as well, boxers brake ribs all the time. What you feel when your teacher demonstrates the technique on you is much more intense then you will feel in a real fight because when you are being demonstrated on you are "cold" meaning that you are not all pumped up and in fight mode. I'm not saying that getting hit with the phoenix eye fist won't hurt, I just think it's not an effective tool in the heat of a real fight.

-Chris Hein

Some people lose "heart" for a fight if you hit them first and well and repeatedly when you are forced into that kind of situation; on the other hand, some people will just smile a little and start firing even if you hit them well.

Training is not the same as fighting and Murphy's Law always applies as does the old adage "keep it simple".

I don't think hitting anyone with one punch will take them out. I think training to hit like that, and conditioning the knuckle will help you when the battle comes.

I pretty much instintively make this fist all the time now when I practice. Maybe thats a bad thing? But I also don't expect to really hit anyone when my bare hands any time soon if it can be avoided at all.

Painful and Uncomfortable and injured does not = out of the fight.

Beside this index finger topic, when i use the middle finger knuckle i use it for raking not for thrusting.

I've heard of that--doesn't seem like that'd stop someone--I'm sure it hurts like hell.

Not really sure it will stop someone as my experience with it is limited but try it on a horizontal plane to the ribs.

Also try it in the kidneys.

GULP!

Yours,

Jagdish

It has its uses...

Never used it on a serious fighter, but have used it (fore-knuckle & middle-knuckle versions) effectively on folks that were physically messing with me in two different ways: grinding into sternum or lower-ribs & as a short-jab to the lower-ribs... it always got my adversary's attention enough for him to back-off (again, these were folks just sizing me up, not folks hell-bent on hurting or killing me).

Decades later I learned that it could be used for raking... I've never done this on anyone... but I didn't like it being done to me (a rake to the ol' nut-sack made me feel a bit sick... I've also been raked with a foot this way: same result).

I've been hit in my arm muscles (soft tissue) with such knuckle-jabs -- they always bruise & often they cause temporary muscle-failure or cramping.