I agree with you than Tim. Sorry for sounding aggresive. Do you think it is because MMA events are not common or popular outside Japan, USA, and Brazil? Or because most internal stylists aren't good enough on the ground (but the best at standup)?

Would you consider fighting in MMA?

Hey Gordo Fugedo...
Internal Martial Artists don't fight MMA because they don't train to fight on the ground. Period.

And you came across sounding like an •••••••...

Maciej,
I think that a good IMA practitioner could do just fine in MMA (provided they trained correctly and intensively enough for the event). They would have to learn to groundfight though.

My tournament is not as intense as cage fights or the Octagon (because we use more protective gear), but the format is the same as MMA. All of my fighters do well with the IMA (all of them have at least a basic knowledge of ground fighting as well and several of them are very good grapplers).

Do you think that if some of the true IMA fighters around the world (or lets just say xing yi for example) learned takedown defense and reverse throws (tai chi has good standup grappling and positioning), double leg take downs, etc. (but not necessarly specialize in ground game because that takes at least a few years) they could win?

I know internal fighters would dominate the competitions held in feudal China (before it was considered illegal by the government). Do you think that the competition at the time was that different than MMA (besides being anything goes)? Are there any internal fighters of the same mindset and skills as those legends?

And one last question, do your students Tim utilize internal principles and whole body movement during sparring or have they not reached that kind of level yet?

According to the guys on this forum: http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=1&TID=0&a=1

"Some Tai Chi guy's up in Canada have some wins"

Also you forgot to mention Bruce (Shooter).

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=270167&FID=1

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=270167&FID=1

Maciej,
Vanderlei Silva is one of the most successful fighters in MMA (presently he fights in the Pride FC). His primary art is Thai boxing, and he wins his fights with striking techniques. He is very good at avoiding the takedown, and has good basic defensive ground skills. Silva is an example of stand up fighters that do very well as long as they have solid takedown and ground defenses.

An IMArtist with good takedown defenses would still have to learn at least basic defensive skills on the ground in addition to good takedown defenses. But they wouldn't necessarily have to become submissions experts.

Organized fights in China (including modern San Shou events and the Lei Tai "platform" fights of old) have never been no holds barred (contrary to popular legend). In addition, in the old days, fights ended when one of the fighters was either knocked off the platform or thrown to the ground. There was no groundfighting allowed.

My students will use the principles of IMA to the best of their ability, depending on their level of skill.

But Vanderlei Silva has weak hands and punches too wide (yes he can strike well with knees, legs, and elbows though).

I would also like to add that Xingyiquan is ALL about SMASHING your Opponent - OBLITERATING them. Pure western boxing and Thai Boxing are sports, and violent ones but if someone got smashed and obliterated (It means broken bones, horrible cuts etc...) in every match, it would soon be banned in a lot of places. SOme thing in mma. If xingyi fighters started dominating and smashing/killing/etc. (like they did in old times) than mma would be barred.

Funny, smashing and killing is what great boxers occasionally do. Cases in point-- Rocky Marciano shearing teeth off at the gums with his punches, Jess Willard hitting a man so hard he broke his neck, Jack Dempsey breaking the aforementioned Willard's ribs and cheekbones in their fight.

Sounds pretty much like what you claim Xing-Yi guys would do, with the exception that these are documented incidents (and ones that occured with gloves on). As far as proven UNGLOVED boxing incidents, Deaf Burke killed a man in the ring, and countless others were likewise slain or severly injured before the advent of the Marquis of Queensbury's rules (See: Elliot J. Gorn's "The Manly Art")

Don't get me wrong, I have healthy respect of Xing Yi (and think Tim Cartmell is the ••••) but Maciej, my friend, you're in some serious denial about how hard boxers hit.

Xin Yi Liu He and Xing Yi Quan focus on the centre line of the opponent and on uprooting along/through that plane and/or striking 'vunerable' targets in that area such as the groin, throat, sternum, throat, larynx, mouth, nose and eyes. They have also developed Shen Fa and Bu fa necessary to be able to achieve this, i.e. to get in close through the guard and deliver mostly short jing (shocking power) strikes with the seven stars (14 points striking method).

Most of those target areas mentioned are not 'suitable' targets in MMA, are not able to be protected through conditioning including iron shirt, golden bell etc and if struck can obviously maim and in extreme cases kill. They are also difficult to hit against a trained and motivated opponent, requiring alot skillful movement to get in and out and/or physical/ mental toughness if you 'wear' a blow or two. There is also no strong relation to the successful utilization of these techniques with physical size and 'western' (for want of a better word) notions of athleticism. From a defensive point of view it may be a 'large' disadvantage.

Here in lies the major point for me. To a large extent MMA competitors can 'strut' around the ring/cage 'safe' in the knowledge that most of their vulnerable areas are 'guarded', there is little or no possibility of surprise tactics, no problem of their large frames being blocked by obstacles in the environment both above and on the floor... etc. To me it not a case of lack of power or lack of ability on part of MMA, but lack of balance between offensive and defensive realities or consequences, with the rules biased to get a particular kind of 'contest', which is not necessarily reflective of 'broader' abilities outside that environment.

Should also have added, perhaps more importantly, a particular kind of contestant as well.

Well put Chris,

Even if MMA is as close as it gets to the "real deal" there are still rules. Those rules would also limit say what a Shuai Chiao fighter might be able to do to end things fast.

That said, though it may be hard to do a XY guy would have to put his money where Maciej's mouth is & try to use the art in the ring against MMAs.

I'm pretty sure Shuai Chiao fighter could use everything they know in a MMA/UFC type of contest without breaking any of the UFC rules. The Shuai Chiao ring rules are far more restrictive than the typical MMA/UFC rules.

I'm guessing Maciej is has read alot of fantasy MA legends that he believed was factual.

Chitown Terror,

The thing that YOU dont realise is that you have pretty much Named ALL the boxers that EVER hit that way ! So , what , less than 10 guys that ANYONE can name from Boxing discovered this kind of Power , and you are talking about a system that teaches it to EVERYONE that Dies The Work . Why go for the "Maybey" when you can go for the "Sure Thing" ? MOST boxing Matches are Decided on Points , and MOST Knocouts IN boxing are NOT the product of a Single , Crushing Blow . They are the Product of HUNDEREDS of Blows .

Martial Arts are Systems of Education . I have yet to see anything In Boxing that says to me that it is capable of REPEATEDLY Producing Hitters like Marciano , Willard , and Dempsey .

I would even go so far as to say that its SO rare within Boxing that There may bee another Cause for it .

There was a man that Played Football that Hit like a Xingyi man , as well ... Someone on Emptyflower pointed him out.

I would also like to add boxing is a sport, and a brutal one at that. How many boxers do you see get better as they get older, not many (unlike xingyi). And the longer they box the more head injuries they sustain (which is very unhealthy again unlike xingyi).

Maciej, I gotta point out 3 things: 1) modern boxing is rather different from the way they used to fight even just 60 years ago 2)training to have their punches felt through those damn gloves tends to develop tremendous power, and 3)who cares how unhealthy someone is going to be in his old age if you are fighting him now?

"The thing that YOU dont realise is that you have pretty much Named ALL the boxers that EVER hit that way !"

Nope. Haven't even started-- I just pretty much chose the three most memorable (to my mind) boxers who fought that way. Others worth mentioning-- Jack Johnson, John L. Sullivan, Yankee Sullivan, Roberto Duran, Max Baer, Mike Tyson, Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Thomas Hearns... the list can go on and on. These are only *some* of the hall-of-fame boxers who had this mysterious "power". Furthermore, some of these boxers, like Hearns and Duran, were fairly light and still scored absolutely brutal knockouts. Granted, not every one will learn to box like a puncher (it depends on your attributes), but the sport has produced a ridiculous amount of people with that raw, gut-wrenching knockout power. I can give you some resources to check out if you're truly interested about the multitude of "punchers" in the boxing world.

While your contention about points is valid (and gets into the minefield that is styles v. styles in boxing), I also would be curious to see how many Xing-Yi men could really knock out their opponents in the ring. To hell with the "too deadly" supposition... I'd like to see some hard data on how much damage Xing-Yi fighters have caused in a non-cooperative setting. Perhaps Tim can shed some light on this? I'm genuinely curious.

"MOST boxing Matches are Decided on Points , and MOST Knocouts IN boxing are NOT the product of a Single , Crushing Blow . They are the Product of HUNDEREDS of Blows"

Just out of further curiousity (I know, it's going to kill me some day), I was wondering if you've ever sparred hard before. As a former boxer, I'd like to say that it's not usually a combination that does you in, it's a punch you don't see coming that will clean your clock. I don't know where you're getting your generalizations, but it's certainly not from inside a boxing gym.

"How many boxers do you see get better as they get older, not many (unlike xingyi). And the longer they box the more head injuries they sustain (which is very unhealthy again unlike xingyi)."

How many Xing-Yi guys fight on a semi-regular basis? We're not talking about one bar fight every 6 years, but a quantity on par with most journeyman professional boxers-- let's arbitarily set the bar low at 40 amateur fights and 20 professional fights. I personally don't know of any. Do you? If you do, please enlighten me. I'm always eager to read up on people who fight, regardless of style-- there's always something to learn. That being said, I have a strong hunch that if you saw Xing-Yi practicioners fighting as often, you'd see a remarkable rise in head trauma-related injuries and other combat sport related damage.

Mr. Kenneth Sohl--

You raise some excellent points. I'd buy you a beer if you're ever in Chitown.

Chitown Terror,

Youre still talking about a REDICULOUSLY low % of the ppl that strap on a pair of Gloves and get in a Ring . There really ARENT a "Multitude" when you consider Every PAL , every Golden Gloves , evbery Youtrh Boxing Programme , and every Basement Gym there ever was . Id say that we were talking about no better than 1% . And THAT is a Stretch , heck , likeley not 1% makes it Pro . There are alot of people who trained in boxing for a considerable ammount of time and still can't fight well. Look at Pat Smith in the UFC. He sopposevly was undefeated in boxing. Look at Keith Hackney, he was sopposevly really good at boxing yet in his ufc matches not only did he have weak hands, but he never used any boxing (kenpo).

"I also would be curious to see how many Xing-Yi men could really knock out their opponents in the ring. To hell with the "too deadly" supposition... I'd like to see some hard data on how much damage Xing-Yi fighters have caused in a non-cooperative setting."

This is the Area where Sports have the "advantadge" in Debates over non-Sportive systems . Every piece of datum in the Boxing world is Tracked , mostly for Gambling purposes .

"Just out of further curiousity (I know, it's going to kill me some day), I was wondering if you've ever sparred hard before."

Yes . thinking that Full-Contact Sparring isnt taking place in a Martial Arts school is rediuculous . Ive been sent ot hte Hospital before after a Sparring Session . But if you mean with Western Boxing specifically , Ive even Imitated Boxers in Matches with them . It was never any problem . Sun Punches tend to confuse them greatly .

"As a former boxer, I'd like to say that it's not usually a combination that does you in, it's a punch you don't see coming that will clean your clock. I don't know where you're getting your generalizations, but it's certainly not from inside a boxing gym."

Im sorry , but MOST punches that are the type that you are talking about ARENT seen BECAUSE the Boxer is Worn down by being hit in the head dozens of times . To say that it is not a Contributing Factor is just silly ... I mean , the ONLY negal Target area is above the Waist , and the Head is Clubbed Repeately . Boxers dont "Not See" the FIRST punch coming , its the four HUNDERED and First that they Miss . Because their Senses have been Dulled .

"How many Xing-Yi guys fight on a semi-regular basis?"

All the ones in good Schools . They may not "Fight" in Sportive Events , but they do , nevertheless . and with quite a bit less rules than Boxers .

"If you do, please enlighten me. I'm always eager to read up on people who fight, regardless of style-- there's always something to learn. That being said, I have a strong hunch that if you saw Xing-Yi practicioners fighting as often, you'd see a remarkable rise in head trauma-related injuries and other combat sport related damage."


Or Ankles broken from Chicken-Step ? The Head is not the only Viable Target in XY . Nor are the hands made so large by gloves that the Body cant take massive Trauma .

YOu said that Tim may be able to "Shed Some Light" on things ... do you live in LA ?

If so , there is a VERY Martial XYQ Community there , and guys like Meynard just LOVE to fight. Im sure hell be happy to get in a Ring or out in a Park with just about anyone .

Hmmm, does Meynard know you're volunteering him for all these fights?