Dear Chaps I'd like to discuss Hsingi Fali by categorising hitting aspects into 2 types (I understand there are many but if we could break it down to 2 categories like Yin/Yang leading to the 10,000 things).

1. PUSH HIT - TYPE PUNCH (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH A PURE PUSH) - What I understand as a “push hit,” has the effect of knocking the opponent backward, or strike penetrating right through them with not much recoil. In a push hit, some of the force is spent hurling the opponent. The push hit is not to be confused with a pure push. A pure push is generally a non-destructive projection that simply moves the opponent (although it can be destructive—for example, if the opponent is pushed out a window). None of the energy/fali/mechanics in the push hit is directed to penetrates into/inside the opponent.





2. SHOCK HIT/IMPACT HIT - Landing a blow with what I call a “shock hit” (or impact hit) - a person struck with shock hit will hardly move but if knocked out they may drop where they stand or perhaps even fall forward. In a shock hit, all of the generated force penetrates into the target, causing internal devastation. The shock hit is the more difficult of the two to pull off with full power all of the time and may not always come off in the roughness of moving wrestling/combat, however the same can be said for any other hit/move.


Shock Hit requires a "sudden" explosion at begining & explosive recoil at the end of the punch, a snap back where as the push/penetration hit has no recoil although there may be a wave through the arm but the arm sits out on the end of the punch not withdrawn with a snapping recoil.


Both hits can be quite powerful, the shock hit is maybe considered the more destructive, unless the push hit endsup with your opponent flying into a wall or to the floor or into something and hitting their head on something hard etc.



MY QUESTIONS FOR discussion are

Q1. A quick side track for Yin/Yang 5 element 8 Triagram Scholars what would you class hits 1 PUSH HIT & 2 SHOCK HIT as which one is Yin which one is Yang ?

Q2. In HSINGi PRACTICE is there any preference for PUSH HIT/SHOCK HIT on the different elements or can they be practiced as desired. Do any of the elements require a specific punch. Say Beng Chuan is Wood and said like an arrow so punch hit type can be considered as Push/Penetration hit with no recoil & Pao Chuan is Fire so punch should be Shock Hit like a firecracker exploding.

Q3. May be HSINGi at mysterious level combines the 2 above types of punch into a hybrid unusual punch that can't be taught only acquired after arduous years of practice


Looking forward to some interesting feedback

Thanks in advance
Jay Sun

What difference does it make?

It makes the difference in being skilled at both types, although you could fight adequeately with only mastering one type of hit, if you can't do both types maybe your not bothered about the difference :?)

Power for the punch comes from forward movement of the body mass and the slight rising or falling of that body mass on impact; power for the "push" aspect of the same punch comes from the settling of the body mass into the foot that follow-stepped.

Some xingyi practitioners stamp to try and help this process along others just "settle" into the follow-step leg to so that you get the "driving affect' from seeming to move backwards as you finish striking forward.

Some practitioners also apparently use the wrist or arm in subtle manners to add to the effecieincy of the second part of the push/pull punch but this must be hard to do when you are hitting a body as opposed to punching the air.

Hmmm, doesn't make too much sense when I write it down but then again I know only a little about the Five elements basic training and describing it in words is almost as hard as using them physically.

As to the I-ching ... it becomes really useful to your martial training only when you tape a copy to the skin over your gut under your jacket or shirt in case the other guy has a knife. ;-}

There is a party trick corkscrew punch when the unsuspecting party allows you to place the right hand in phoneix fist on their stomach you then suddenly drive forward with Hsingi Beng Chuan footwork, but using a heng chuan/tsuan chuan type drilling fist (hence the name corkscrew) and they go flying back and their own stomach acts like a spring adding to the momentum, but funny thing is tryin this trick on a movin opponent who by the way is also trying his damdest to do stuff on you... :?)

As for the I Ching when the mugger with the knife comes to attack I throw my special I Ching Geomancy Dices and consult the oracle just to see what the outcome maybe :?)

my theory is,
when done correctly, your punch on impact causes a large vibration inside of the opponent, and the damage depends on the frequency of the vibration that you create, just like hitting a drum. i believe that your body can actually shape this force of vibration depending on the alignment of ones body to generate the most efficient type of powerful movement, a movement that is powerful yet effortless. utilizing the muscles to act like rolling crashing waves, and of course directing your chi into a focused point. rooted into the earth and simple. I just wonder now how tough it will be to use these principles while grappling.

nice talking with y"all
rob

Just seems like a long-winded way of saying one is a pounding action and the other is a snapping action.

Martial Arts, we practice & study...

hmmm... you know maybe, yea just maybe... Martial Arts "Just seem like a long-winded way" of saying or guiding how one should or could fight or defend themselfs

Ah, the "art" part of Martial Arts....

Kenneth Sohl "Master of the 1 sentence rebuttal"

p.s. is that how it's done or have a failed by actually typing more than 2 sentences whoops.... get "long-winded" there for a second

"Rebuttal"? Never. And yes, you were sufficiently laconic.

Kenneth, I'm rarely rude, you may have misenterpreted my sense of humour, or mickey taking as we say in the UK, I'd rather get some good useful feedback from the experienced high calibre MAs who use discussion board, rather than degress to bitching and handbags at six paces, so on the subject of MAs and my original Hsingi query, what do you think happens or has been achieved when Masters reach Hsingi "Mysterious Level", any others whom want to chip in please do.

Kind Regards

Jay

Jason, I just meant you were being short and to the point, not necessarily rude (I thought I had already defined "laconic"). Speaking of humour, I was just heckling for fun as with this 13th post on your original question which is yet another non-answer

Perhaps "mysterious" power refers to the way that some experts can strike so suddenly and with such power that the poor bugger that they hit is left feeling "mystified" at how it happened -- that is, if he is still standing and conscious after being hit.

Simplicity of movement and real functional effeciency often seems mysterious when you can't do it. That's why beginners are often told to practise with "obvious force" (i.e., stamping the foot) in some hsing-i styles.

In Hsingi the stamping foot, as taught to me in 5 element linking routine white crane flashes it wings transition - application is only for stamping on someones foot - I've seen Prof Li Deyin demonstrate his hsingi at a seminar and there is no overt stamping taught, and the follow through step requirements requested were light. Then again I've seen other demos where the front landing foot is placed forcefully, but not necessarily a stamp, although I've seen masters place the front down and it seems like a stamp, however on closer looking it is not a stamp, but the one part all parts move, the sum of parts - power = more than the potentional of indivudual parts operating separately - I think that makes sense I'm not sure what equation thingamajig I'm on aboout but that one looks like the one

sounds interesting, but it also seems as if the habitual stomping is put to use as a stomp to the feet, or is it? either way it sounds good. the funny thing is, in my neighborhood there is a common tactic to use the stomping foot as a sweeping one, there is even a name for it but i wont go into that.

It sounds like you are talking about density change, which is a skill set that is taught in shing yi to create either "short power" or "long power". "Short power" issues power into the person (into their body, shocking their internals) without sending them away, "long power" sends the power through the person, causing him to be thrown back with the direction of the energy. The stomping technique in shing yi is a complex way of increasing the power you want to issue out of you by bouncing it off the floor and allowing it to rebound into the person. The basic strikes of metal, wood, and fire can be used with either of these three skills depending on your desired outcome. Understanding the techniques and devoted training lead to these skills, there is no "magic" involved.

The push hit is long jing and the shock hit is short jing. Both methods use an "explosion" One just lasts longer than the other. The sudden explosion in the shock hit is called broken jing in hsingyi. Taiji calls it cold jing.

Like the gentleman said above each one creates a vibration in the body that is delivered to the opponent through the fist or whatever you hit him with. In our hsing yi practice any of the five fists can have either of the two types of power. The body is supposed to explode in all directions when expessing power. Like a bomb. Hence the phrase explosive power. I don't believe that you can classify them as either yin or yang. Any exertion of power starts out relaxed (yin) and then becomes hard (yang)at the moment of impact and then relaxes again. Don't get caught up in the yin & yang, five element cycle of creation and destruction thing.

Each of the five fists contains the essence of the other four within it to a lesser degree.

"the body is supposed to explode in all directions"well a got a stomach bug one time and it felt that way!
if you have the choice to push or hit your opponent,knock him out, unless there's a window to push him out of?
and for the people that stamp others, where are you mailing them?(it's not a way to get rid of your enemies! get with technology,and fax them
or e-mail them away!come on!
get real guys if you ever been hit in the face
you would know that the last thing you can think of,is what element is going on now(fire water?)!
and is my ass yang or is it yin, but it's getting kick for sure!

In a combat scenerio one must never think about their movements, the mind must be clear, so a shing yi practioner would never plan out his attack in advance. You hope in combat to react instinctually with whatever arsenal you have engrained in your body through training. If you have trained in various methods of releasing power into a person, then those methods become part of your arsenal, therefore an option at your disposal. The very idea that a punch is just a punch, without respect to subtle energy changes, seems strange on a chat site for taoist internal kungfu.