Hi all,
Reading an old (1993) interview with Lo De Xiu about Hung Yi Zhang and Lo's views of XingYi, the intriguing topic of the "spinal wave" came up...Hung Yi Zhang told my first teacher, as the article said, that doing the elements long enough with attention to all the nuances, would eventually pay off in developing the wave. Lo spoke of advanced mechanics that would produce the "wave". I'm wondering if your teachers or if you, Tim, suggest different forms etc. to do in our XingYi to help develop "the wave". Thanks in advance.
Rick

There are single movement exercises that train the wave of force through the body, but the Five Elements done correctly are sufficient I believe to produce the flow of momentum up the body that Xing Yi Quan techniques rely on for power.

I'm afraid i don't understand . probably due to my lack of knowledge . but does this "wave " mean using the body as one "tool" to produce power for ANY movement ? or does it produce power for just a few movements . I apologize if my questions sound ignorant , but i only want to know more .

Power in the Internal styles primarily comes from waves or spirals of force. When you generate a waves of momentum up and down the body, the power is most often used in techniques which strike/lift upward or downward (as the flow of momentum is vertical).
For example, an untrained fighter throws an uppercut by swinging his arm upward from the shoulder. A trained boxer throws an uppercut from the ground up, generating a wave up through his whole body. A trained wrestler will use basically the same wave of force up through the body when executing techniques requiring lifting from the rear (like a suplex for example). The Xing Yi Quan techniques of Drilling and Splitting also use this vertical wave of force.

So , root yourself in the ground to be stronger .....

This will help you with your 'spinal wave'-any of the shakedowns will do the trick

www.deadshow.com

scroll down approx one third to Ithaca New York show May 77 jammin Scarlet/Fire - mind boggling Jerry wah wah on Estimated.

" Used to be the HEART of town"

Just heard from a fellow who mentioned this exercise:

Stand with the back and buttocks against the wall then flatten the lower back against the wall also. He says that this movement uses the same muscles as Park Bok Nams 'dragon back'/spinal wave. He suggests that this exercise can be used to get the feel of the movement, then it can be applied to other stances/movements.

Comments please, from anyone who has practiced the dragon back/spinal wave.

Mark:

Li Tai Liang did a pretty nice 4-part series on the "Squatting Monkey" exercises from Dai family Xinyiquan in "Internal Martial Arts Journal" (www.sixharmonies.org). He's added these to his Che Yizhai style xingyiquan practice (a Shanxi style). They seem pretty straightforward, but you could get the nuances from an LTL seminar if he comes to your area some time.

My own Hebei-style teacher taught trying to integrate a "vertical circle" with a pulse of motion along the spinal axis in each of the wuxing forms, like Tim was describing above.

I remember Ken Fish (who studied with Zhang Junfeng, Hong I-hsiang's teacher)describing a few different exercises they used to develop that kind of spinal coordination and power. I think he called it "tiger back" or something like that.

I trained "dragon back". I also met teacher who showed me better way of "how to train dragon back". But, after some experience, I gave up this training method. I thing, that short up and down movement of whole body is better, faster and gives you just the same results. And more - with good breathing it will produce very, very small dragon back. So I think, that the best one can do is to let the dragon back come itself. Than, it is very natural and fast.

Leo

The second way of training 'dragon back'. Can you describe how it was different from the first way? Could you give a little more detail about this 'short up and down' movement?

Mark

OK. I will try it. My English is not very good, so please be patient...
Are you familiar with Park´s method of Dragons back? The second way of training is done in this manner: you must find flexible tree, put your palm on it, lower your body and try to push the tree (or something which is flexible or "easy to push" ) using small wave running up from your lower back thru your back, arms to palm. Try to keep this motion as small as possible.
Short up and down movement. It is very simply. Have 70 % of your weight on your back leg (so you are in 70%/30% stance) . Then move up to 50%/50%. Your whole body will move up as one unit. Then move back (down) to 70%/30%. Your palms make contact with your opponent in the same time as you are in 50%/50% (if moving from 70/30). Or you can make contact in 70/30 stance (in the case you are moving from 50/50). Main movement is up and down, not foreward-backward. Always be relaxed and in balance. When you are striking with one palm, you should add rotation of your whole body. Also, you should breath out during strike using "Daoist" way of breathing. Or, better, use method of "shi sheng" from yiquan. If you are doing it right, you´ll have very small dragon back. It will no´t be visible. It can be sensed only by touch (ask your friend).
I am sorry that I am unable to describe it in better way.
Hope you understand.

Recently it dawned on me that the 'spinal wave' was one of the things that was occuring naturally to me during standing practice. Anybody else had this experience?

nope. Assuming you mean standing in WuJi or TaiJi
there wouldn't be any movement, right?

It first occured in 'wu ji' (standing naturally, arms hanging at my sides). It still occurs in bent knee, extended arms positions. Part of this phenomemona may be that I have always allowed my body to relax, even slump, that that was prefered so that gravity could mold you. If the body is held rigid any more than the mimimum necessary to hold the position, then it becomes only a strength building exercise and nothing more.

wow, man...

The concept of standing postures is to align your skeleton so that if your muscles and tendons melted away your skeleton would still stand (not possible while slumping). Then your body is standing with no muscular help. That's relaxation.

Gravity molds everyone.... teach your body to align properly and gravity's effect wont be much... if you practice slumping... get used to walking with a cane for later on in life.

The phenomenon you're having probably has to do with your back muscles freaking out because you're training your body to align itself improperly(slumping). The muscles are shifting around trying to compensate for what you are doing to yourself. That isn't Dragon Back... that's Hump Back.

(the lower stances ARE for building muscular strength)

What you say is correct, however it sounds like you visualize the 'slump' as a little more extreme than I use it.

For example, many teach that the pelvis must be in a specific position and the knees bent to a specific degree when standing in 'wu ji' the relaxed natural position. However by allowing my body to relax while just standing, it would shift about and I would gently bring it back into line. It later settled into an extremely stable position with the pelvis and knees in the supposedly 'correct' position. I have read that a number of people would try to hold the 'correct' position but always be uncomfortable and never get it right. By relaxing in the stance my body discovered the optimum position by itself.

For other positions, such as san ti or the three circle post, of course one must be more disciplined in holding a posture. But if you see it as only a strength building exercise (which they are great for)and hold it rigidly then you miss out on so many other benefits. (one of these to allow all muscles not necessary to hold the position to relax)

The 'wave' I experience seems to be simply the movement up the spine if I allow the pelvis to shift forward to back or if it just wants to do it on its own. This is taught in Yi Chuan.

If you stand for a while and are very still, you will sometimes feel a 'wave' of motion up through the body that is caused by the rhythm of the breath.

My mother practices Tai-Chi in Taiwan with a former student of Cheng Man-Ching. She told me that when he does his Tai-Chi, if you put your hand on his lower back, you can actually feel a wave coming up from his spine segment by segment. I think that's what you mean by the WAVE???

I had decided to train the 'Dragon Back' spinal wave as described by Park Bok Nam however my back is nowhere near supple enough for this movement. I have been practicing arching the back while standing as a way of working up to it. Have noticed that even this arching adds to the power of hip rotation.

Recalled seeing a Mike Paterson cd where he adds what he calls a spinal wave to a movement and this is just the simple arching. How many variations are out there? Comments?