Shane,
I'm talking primarily about groin strikes. I don't think they are allowed in any regulated contests. I could be wrong though.

Ramming the head into the ground for a knock out may be compromised by the composition of the surface, though I hear it has happened.

Another prefered SC technique is elbow to heart. That's got to be allowed by most rules. I don't know if anyone ever tried it.

It's also fairly easy to break someones neck from what I gather. Again I could be wrong. I don't really know which rules protect against that, but I'm not schooled on the various rules.

I notice that many MMA punches & attempted punches are rabbit punches. Say what you will about submission techniques, etc. but this along with allowing kidney punches is what makes the Pride Fights most dangerous.

I read that article about how boxing is more dangerous than UFC & what not - how grappling looks bad but does less permanent damage - but rabbit & kidney shots, not to mention those to the back of the neck must take a toll.

It's because the UFC fighters are pros, and paid for what they do. They do not feel they need or want to kill each other. It is just an athletic contest of skills, it's not worth it to maim, or go all out. Most of them are friends and know each other, and after the contest they sometimes hug. If you see some maches they even stay back and are reluctant to approach one another and attack. This is not a real fight between to individuals who hate each other, and will do anything necessary (including maim or kill) to win.

Hi,
Tim or anyone else, in Hsing I I was taught that all postures contain angular positioning of the body as opposed to bagua which seems to have more of an arc structure to it; for example, in san ti, the lead arm drops at the elbow and the hand is higher than the elbow which creates a triangle of sorts, whereas in walking the circle in bagua, the focus seems to be more on creating these arcs in the shape of the arm and other body parts. I was wondering if the difference in these methods is due to a difference in the way that power is used in these arts or developed or both. I guess the heavy elbows of Hsing I develop more from a triangular sort of structure whereas pakua focuses less on this method and others created by this kind of training. One other thing that a friend mentioned is that in the style that he studies ( I think from Kenny Gongs method of hsing i), the arm is extended, the elbow dropped but you try to feel as if the forearm is bending in an arc (the bone of the forearm) which seems to create a similar effect to the arcs of bagua training. This might all be semantics, but it raised some interesting thoughts to me about the nature of power training in these arts. Thank you for your time. Oh, and happy halloween!!!!!

hi tim,

the subject of triangle/sphere is an interesting one, i think. the tcc form i was taught is very spherical (even more than most, i think). and i think i follow josh's question in principle.

the triangle/circle(sphere) is something i've heard discussed in various contexts.

tim, is this something you can comment on? or is it too abstract?

i'd be interested in what your thoughts are. both sphere and triangle have their strengths, in my present understanding. and perhaps their weaknesses? do they relate in some yin/yang fashion?

are they related in your mind to line/circle?

best...

Although the concept or "intention" of holding the body (mainly the arms) in "spherical" shapes may be a useful mental image that effects alignment, it is, in actuality, impossible to hold the limbs in a spherical shape.

Since the body works as a lever system with rotation around articulated joints, the form can never be truly spherical. There are always angles, never true arcs.

Imagining triangles may also be useful to give the practitioner a template of alignment, but you can make a triangle between any three points, no matter how you arrange your limbs. So the concept of "triangle" becomes irrelevant.

The reality is, you can straighten your limbs and create relatively straight lines, or you can bend your limbs and create angles (not triangles, or arcs or spheres). The important thing is the purity of the power line from the ground up through the body and out the limbs, and the access to the stretch/rebound of your connective tissue.

thanks, tim for your concise answer to my vague question. much appreciated.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the answer and your time. One question though, is the stretch/rebound of the connective tissue the same as the compression/expansion of the space between the joints? Thanks again.

Josh,
Right, compression causes the connective tissue to stretch, when the pressure is released, the stored energy causes the joint to "expand" (rebound)to it's neutral position.

I noticed way back in this thread a conversation about Huang Guo Zhen (Huang Bo Nian's son). Does any one know where to find any information on him, I've been looking for anything on him for a while now and cant find any thing

well alex, if i told you, then i would have to kill you. sorry.

mel siff and verhoshansky (2 of the best scientist
in sport training)
said that olympic weightlifting and shock method
(plyometrics) are the best way to increase elastis
stored energy and kinetic energy (the 2 most important for sport!
so forget the chinese that you can't even say there name
and get with the program.
sorry for all of you that worship chinese,
but when is the last time a china guy ever done anything in the MMA world???????????
don'''''t ••••••• tell me that they are too dangerouus for competetion,
if so •••• you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow marc! How did you get so smart? Been taking some more of them "smart" pills? If my dog was as smart as you, I would kill it. (slowly)

Not everyone is convinced that Plyos or Olympic lifts transfer that well to sports performance, especially robert. But, Ben Johnson's training regimen outside of running (and steroids) was just squatting, power cleans and plyos like bounds/skips/jumps. He did ok running around.

Powerlifters are not fast/or coordinated: Ben could back squat over 600 lbs in his prime, which for his weight would have made him a pretty competitive powerlfiter. But he was into running.

Actually, powerlifters are very quick, agile and coordinated. The current champion has a standing vertical leap of 48".

I think it all goes to the individual. No two people are exactly alike. Each person has strengths and weaknesses. Some are strong but not so quick. Some are quick but not so strong. Some are very intelligent while others are not. You can build strength. You can enhance quickness. You cannot enhance intelligence. When you teach you have to adapt the teaching to the individual's abilities. As for me I always enjoy teaching the intelligent ones. I can give them the strength through training.

Similarly the individual should play to his strengths while attacking an opponent's weaknesses. I saw Royce Gracie fighting Dan Severen (sp?). Severen had him down but could not finish him. Severen was much stronger. Many thought Gracie won with superior technique but he didn't. He won with superior endurance. Severen ran out of gas and ultimately Gracie forced him to tap out.

The assumption on the part of many is that practicioners of the internal arts don't have raw strength and power. For the most part this is not true. When you became a student of Hsu Hong Chi you were going to become strong or you were going to quit. We did a tremendous amount of pure physical exercise at the beginning of each class. In each class there were several sets of push ups (knuckle, finger tip, one armed, wrist, etc.) sit ups, side raises, reverse raises, knee bends (several types) and so on and so on. I cannot count the number of people who quit because they could not hand the physical demands.

Additionally, he did not limit the training to the internal styles. He began his training on Taiwan at age 8. His first experience with the MA's was judo and kendo. The Japanese controlled Taiwan for over 100 years so he came up through a Japanese controlled school system. The boys were required to engage in two of three Japanese arts (judo, kendo, or sumo). He didn't begin training in the Chinese arts until 13 or 14. In each class we did break falls. We learned to wrestle. We learned throws and takedowns. Of course sweeps. We learned joint locking techniques. We also learned some Shao Lin and he wasn't adverse to introducing some regular boxing (European/American)to the class. He always told us, "If it works use it." And speaking of power. I once saw one of the young 2nd degree black belts do a two footed flying kick into a heavy bag and tear it in half. Hsu Laoshi was so mad when he looked over and saw the bottom half of that bag hanging by a eight inch strip of canvas and the stuffing all over the floor he jumped up, came out on the mats, looked the kid in the face (You don't even want to know what the look on his face was), and told him in no uncertain terms, "You buy a new bag tomorrow." The next evening there was a new bag in the school.

I came back to the States and started teaching. The sensei at the judo school was upset that I taught break falls, throws and takedowns. The guys at the karate and taekwondo schools laughed because I taught wrestling and judo skills along with Hsing I, Pa Kua and Shao Lin. They also thought it odd that I taught the crosses, hooks, and jabs of American boxing. Funny, it wasn't long before some of their students were showing up wanting to join my classes. Then when the UFC events started half of them were suddenly looking for training in the grappling arts or suddenly claiming that they taught them too.

Hsu Hong Chi said if it works use it. He did not discourage cross training, rather he encouraged it. He told me once, "I have many friends teach many styles of Chinese boxing. Anything you want to learn you let me know. I have them come here after class or before class to teach you. Or I fix so you can go visit them before or after their classes. No charge. They will do it for me because we are friends." He meant it and I took advantage of his offer though it was difficult to find time between the army duties and training at Hsu Laoshi's school. I practically lived there. Three to four hours (occasionally more) six nights a week.

An intelligent martial artist has a natural curiosity about other styles and will cross train if possible. Hsu Laoshi liked to say, "Always good to know what other guy going to do."

that is an awesome story.

wow!!! that bag must have been made in china!
dan severn knew nothing but wrestling.
and to this day he still can't throw a decent punch!royce waited for a submission and got it
25 min. into it.good for royce,but bad example.
thoth got a point.
how can you move without strength?
i agree techniques are important,but if i can do the same move than you ,but with 3 times the amount of force?????then you're screwed.
taiwan 69-73 (that's 30 years ago!!!i bet MA change since then!)
is this thread call autobiography????
should be a movie.

The point is that people assume that practicioners of the internal arts aren't strong. That is not true. We conditioned for strength. If you're referring only to weight training what makes you think we don't do that too? I had a weight machine in my school. Prior to injuring my back I was able to squat 550 lbs. I also benched 290. I'm 5'9" and weigh 160. I simply do not believe that weight training is the pentultimate path to strength for a martial artist. Weight training was not unusual in China 100 or more years ago.

Indeed, the MA have changed but the changes have not been to the arts themselves, but rather in the attitude of many of the practicioners. When it comes to the arts themselves, there is nothing being done today that wasn't thought of long ago.

In regard to the number of years that have passed since I began walking the path of the martial arts you have to understand that with each passing year a martial artist gains more knowledge and experience. A true martial artist never stops learning.

Technique has always been the great equalizer. And raw strength is not the only component of force. Speed and quickness also contribute to force. In fact increasing the speed of a strike 10% will multiply the force of the strike more than incresing the weight behind the strike by the same 10%.

And no, this thread is not called autobiography. It deals with how one is taught the martial arts.

but to get quicker and faster you need to train for that.IMA with their form and push hand stuff don't do that.was that squat pr in 73???
then why don't you tell me where are all the great IMA dudes now?????
no one on this post can!
all i hear is fantasy and delusions.
if you can fight you can fight,competition or not!!!!
i'm tired of hearing all this crap about all these
chinese guys that never proved anything.
if IMA is so great then,can someone show it.
i would like to see them push someone 30 feet away!!!!!!!!
ps i don't believe your squat,because you would have to be very involed for a long time in
weightlifting in order to do that.and anyone that trained so hard at lifting believes in strength
training.no one like that would give it up for some internal fantasy hallucinations!

Marc, you are welcome to believe what you want. I'm assuming, from what you have to say, that you are a big, strong guy who is more into power lifting than anything else. I had some big guys in my classes over the years. One was a guy named Wilbur Hackner. Everyone called him "Big Hack". He was 6'3", 285 lbs. He was all state defensive tackle in high school. He was the state heavy weight wrestling champion in high school. He played defensive tackle for a division II college. He boxed. He played judo and he was my student. He was a big, strong young man but he was also a humble man and a good student. I liked him and taught him everything I could. He joined the police department and, unfortunately, was shot to death. I miss him even though he has been gone for almost 29 years.

When I was in Vietnam I was with the 173rd Airborne Brigade. I was 19 years old when I went to jump school at Fort Benning, GA. In the physical fitness test to determine whether I met the qualifications to be a paratrooper I did 315 knee bends. In high school I ran track and cross country. I wan't particularly good but I did run a 4:41 mile. In Vietnam I humped a rucksack that weighed right at 75 pounds. That didn't include my web gear and weapon. My unit was in the central highlands so I spent my days carrying all of that weight up and down hills all day every day. I have always had very strong legs.

One of the first things I was taught when I began training in the martial arts was, "Never underestimate your opponent. Appearances and first impressions can be deceiving." and "Never allow your ego to become so inflated that you lose track of your own limitations."

I didn't undertake the study of MA because I wanted to fight. I did enough fighting in Vietnam to last several lifetimes. If you feel the need to fight then by all means get involved in UFC. As for me, I was already well into my 40's by the time UFC came along.

Reading your posts I can only believe that you have a false image of the internal arts. You seem to think that there is no physical side to IA. You seem to believe what you have seen in the movies. IA's are just as physically demanding as any other MA. What is your art? I'm also a little curious as to your age.
If you want others to respect your opinions you need to stop raging, accusing, insulting, and challenging everything that others have to say.
I found that I could learn more by keeping my mouth shut, and using my eyes and ears. But, as you say, what do I know? I'm just an old man.