Taiwan 69-73,
Nice. May I asked where you lived in Taiwan? (sorry if you already answered this for others).

Ahdoga,

I was in the U.S. Army. I worked at the USASTRATCOM compound in Taipei and lived in an apartment with my wife who was Taiwanese. I was close enough to walk to and from work. I also walked to and from Hsu Laoshi's school.

Charlie

i not a big guy and i train MMA already.i have good techniques.
so you don't do martial art for fighting!
what is MA for then?you could get the same out of tai bo or ping pong.
i see your point,and like some aspect of IMA.
but i think that most guys that do it,are stuck
in fantasy and they can't do half of what they think they are capable!they go on talking about chi and forms.but if they can't fight to show what it's all about then it's meaningless.
randy couture is in his 40's,he got in the ring and showed what he had.
ps. how come IMA is not one of the MA that todays best fighters use?BJJ,boxing,muay thai,wrestling,
if it's so great then how come no one trains it?
and why does the people that are so great at it don't fight.all good fighters like to show their
skills,unless they don't have any!!!

all these "great masters" like Li Tai Liang, Chen Xiao Wang, He Jin Bao, sorry to say it.. ,etc etc, and all make more money giving seminars and don't fight or compete cos it's bad for marketing if they were to Lose. They have plenty of kiss ass sycophants eager to get "secrets" from the master so these sycophants host seminars to milk money for the "master" from hapless chi huggers and do corny retreats in the forest for 500-600 dollars a pop. While you are there the "masters" are selling their videos for 40 dollars each. Don't forget about the Tee shirts and calligrapy posters signed by the "master"... Or the Waxwood training poles for 50 dollars. hey and later on u can get a private lesson where they will "correct" your form so u r shaking in a stationary position for an hour for only 120 bucks... gee u learn so much in so little time!!!

Bob your full of it!!!

Without the basics you got nothing!
Just another dude who thinks he can skip the Kung Fu like standing for an hour or two, which is to develop peng jin without which you got nothing, not worth trying the advanced stuff / technique which all require strong peng jin as a basis

Or was you just joking, bawahaahhaah judging by that Phat Photo of yourself I doubt it, ah well another on bites the dust !!!! Just keep reasuring yourself that the likes of Wang Shu Jin and Yang Cheng Fu were clincally overweight, but could kick ass !!!

You guys have brought up a lot of interesting points, so many I'm afraid most of them will get lost in the scuffle.

Marc, I have seen people pushed 30 feet away or more. I've seen Erik do it. I've been pushed at least 15-20 feet myself, by Tung Kai Ying.
I don't know where you are, but there are people in the US that could demonstrate this for you.
I'm sure Tim can do it. If you really want to know the truth about this, it's available; you can see it, you can feel it. You could probably learn to do it.

It isn't magic, it isn't supernatural, and it doesn't mean you fly 30 feet through the air!
It's a trick, sort of. What you do is, using the ability to issue force developed by martial arts, you push the person very hard, very suddenly, and pretty much level, so he doesn't leave his feet, he doesn't fall down, he's able, just barely, to keep his feet and stagger backward. After 10, 20, 30 feet, whatever, he finally either regains control, or falls down.
If you uproot him and throw him up in the air, he'll only fly maybe 6 feet. If you push him off his feet, then of course he'll fall down, not far away. The 30 ft thing means he's staggering backward.

That's for a demonstration. You could take that same push and change it a little, into a strike that could probably break ribs or sternum, or into a very hard fall.

Marc, you know, you're finally starting to ask some decent questions. Keep it up. Better yet, find a good internal arts teacher and study with him (or her). That's the only way you'll really know. Jake is putting on another seminar with Tim next month; go check it out.

About your other questions: I'm not claiming, Tim certainly isn't claiming, I don't think most of the sensible posters on this board are claiming, that internal arts are more effective for fighting than external arts. They're not less effective either. Martial arts is martial arts, and (quoting Tim) "it's all theory until a human moves". You can not put two arts in the ring, only two fighters.

What does seem to be true, though, and I really doubt you can get it either from tae bo or ping pong, is that internal arts practice seems to be better for the body, especially as you get older.
That's why lots of guys switch to internal arts in their 40's and up. That's why internal arts is associated with old guys; it's not that they have nothing for young guys, it's that the internal artists last longer!

If you fight, you'll be able to fight longer; look at Tim, winning jiujitsu tournaments in his 40's. (And he would certainly tell you that jiujitsu is consistent with internal arts principles).

If you don't fight, you'll be able to retain your physical agility much longer, or regain much of it. In my case, never having been much of an athlete, I can surpass it; I can do things in my 60's I could never do before.

Fatboy, it's apparently true that people like Wang Shu Jin and Yang Cheng Fu could win fights despite being overweight. Certainly sumo wrestlers can be fat and win matches. I just saw the US Sumo Open week before last, and the guy who won everything, Kato, was one of the oldest guys there, and clearly has characteristics of an internal artist, btw. And he's 6'3" 380, and several of the other top heavyweights were 400 or more.
These guys are fat; it doesn't necessarily mean they're out of shape. They're guys in great shape who are carrying a lot of extra weight.
I don't think Wang Shu Jin would have done too well in a marathon, or in a 15-round boxing match, but a fat guy can have strength, skill, flexibility, can move pretty well (a few of them anyway) and can win a short fight.

Of course Bob is right that there's a lot of BS in martial arts. (I'm not sure any more in the internal arts than external). Doesn't necessarily mean that standing practices have no value. I think they do. However, there have been lots of great athletes, great fighters, and great meditators who didn't do standing practices.

Taiwan, good to meet another Ahdoga out there. Must have been very interesting back during that time.
Tim's an Ahdoga as well.
I was in Taipei for only 6 months in 1990. I then lived in Taichung for a total of about 3.5 years.
My wife is from Feng Yuan, just outside Taichung.
We try to go back every year.
May move back someday... Who knows.
Cheers

I had a girlfriend from Feng Yuan. What are the odds.

My wife was from Tao Yuan. Her's was a farm family. Unfortunately the marriage didn't last but we had two children. My daughter will be 35 this year and my son 34. I haven't been back to Taipei since leaving June 1, 1973. I think of my years there often. They were the best years of my life. Of course, after 19 months in Vietnam those few years were like heaven so it may have exaggerated how good they really were. lol

Charlie

fatboy are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? seems u r doing both.... make up your mind already

also there are no photos of myself anywhere on the net. be they fat or otherwise.

30 feet in a demonstration or in a fight,is
quite different.
do you think your chances are better pushing me or throwing a hard punch,in order to break my ribs?
but if it's not working like you planned,
and the only thing that happens is me stepping
back for "20 feet"!!!then what?i'll just come back after you.
you keep pushing me,i keep coming back......
well,then we're back to the stamina story!!!
so,why not focusing on hit the chin (or vital areas)with power and accuracy,instead of pushing
,deflecting or yielding ?????????
please, don't get offended,just read beetween the sarcasm!

I was once in a streetfight, or more correct gang fight maybe, anyhow there was 3 of "us" against seven of them... to cut a long story short one of us managed to push one of them about 5 or 6 feet back into the road, which was in the path of an oncoming car, there was a massive screeching noise, followed by a car horn sounding and one of the opposition sitting on his arse in the middle of the road looking rather white facing a car bumper about 2 inches short from his face, needless to say I think he had a revelation or enlightenment or shat his pants, whatever he did not wish to fight anymore and just ran off, the remaining members of the gang continued to fight a few more seconds but lost it as the guy who just ran off was one of the dominant members of their group

It turned out in the end the 3 of us beat the 7 of them, but I guess they thought they were just gonna dish out an easy kicking, whereas us 3 felt we were all fighting for our lifes

"30 feet in a demonstration or in a fight,is
quite different."

Well, of course it is. What's your point?


"do you think your chances are better pushing me or throwing a hard punch,in order to break my ribs?

What's the difference? It hurts just as bad either way. If I had that level of skill, and we were fighting with that degree of seriousness, and I happened to get the opportunity, sure, I think breaking your ribs with a fajing push is a very viable option. However, and I'm totally speculating here, I have no experience of real fighting at all, let alone based on taiji techniques, but I doubt pushes, even ribcrushing ones, are a high priority. Punches, palm strikes, elbow strikes, joint locks and throws are probably much more useful in general. I was just trying to explain to you what the 30 foot push thing means, since you brought it up.

Marc, I appreciate the fact that you seem to be actually trying to learn something now. I begin to realize that you always have had a serious interest, you just don't seem to know good ways to express it. A lot of this combative style of yours is really counterproductive for you. You're trying to refute things nobody around here is saying.

yes, there is a lot of nonsense to be heard and read about martial arts, and maybe about internal arts more than some others (maybe). That doesn't mean that there's no value in martial arts, or that no one knows what they're doing, or talking about. Some people don't. Some people definitely do. People on this board are only responsible for the nonsense we say, not for whatever you heard or read somewhere else, like maybe in Kumar's book.




?but if it's not working like you planned,
and the only thing that happens is me stepping
back for "20 feet"!!!then what?i'll just come back after you.

Well, I agree with that. I don't think pushing is that useful a tactic in general. You could take that same push and turn it into a hard strike, OK? Forget whether it breaks ribs or not.
The point is that where we have a push in friendly sparring or push hands practice, we can have a devastating strike if it's for real.

Or do a takedown, or get a joint lock and either break your elbow, for example, or put you in a submission hold.
I'm not advocating pushing as a combat tactic. I'm not advocating anything. I'm just trying to explain some stuff for you.




you keep pushing me,i keep coming back......
well,then we're back to the stamina story!!!

Well, I look at that a little differently.
If I'm sufficiently better than you that I can push you ten times, that's still not what I want to do, because you may get to me on the eleventh try.
So I wouldn't just keep pushing you away, I would try for something that would hurt you or scare you bad enough that you stop bothering me.
Repeatedly pushing you is not a tactic anyone in their right mind would use against a serious attacker, so my ability to keep pushing you without getting tired wouldn't really come into it.


so,why not focusing on hit the chin (or vital areas)with power and accuracy,instead of pushing
,deflecting or yielding ?????????

I agree. Striking, and throwing, and joint locking, are the main tactics you can use in standup barehand fighting. A certain amount of yielding, evading, following, sticking and deflecting is useful first to protect yourself, then to get the opening for this devastating strike or throw that we're planning. Yielding and so on are first for defense, then for setting up an attack. They are not a substitute for a good offensive technique.

Again, Marc, you're trying to refute things that I'm not claiming, and neither is anyone else that I'm aware of.

please, don't get offended,just read beetween the sarcasm!

I'm not offended, but why don't you just make it easier for all of us and lose the frelling sarcasm? Save it for times when it's appropriate. And try to learn to be funny when you're sarcastic, like Old Mr. Serious Number Two.

it wasn't meant to be funny,just bluntly sarcastic
but nevermind that.
where are all those strikes,elbows,throws and
locks?all i have ever seen of taichi is
slow motion nonsense.
who and where are the people that are just taichi
artist and can strike,throw and submit???
i'm talking of the ones that will put it on the line,not the ones that just tell students what to do!!


ps. why do you seem to believe so much in this stuff?yes you might have trained with some slick
guy,but have you rolled with a BJJ black belt,
or a great muay thai kickboxer guy?
what can those IMA masters do that the best MMA fighter can't?

Marc Daoust wrote
"what can those IMA masters do that the best MMA fighter can't?"

Answer, grow old gracefully, live a healthy life in old age, and not be a burden on the medical system with old recurring injuries resurfacing from those days of BJJ and Gage Rage etc. etc.

Marc when your 45 to 50 are you still gonna be rolling with the local kick your ass, who's the strongest, fittest nastiest mo fu dude in the dojo, local Mixed Fighters, FULL CONTACT CLUB.... I doub't it very much so... but I know your gonna quote me some old MMA dudes, but find me one without a recurring injury becoming a niggling achiles heel in old age... betcha cant

If you have any sense you might opt for what many many other older MAs have done in later years and take up an internal art with less aggravation on the joints etc... but while your still in your 20s-30s your fine training in what your training in, provided your not damaging your body past the state of no repair.

Nuff Said

Fatboy, I owe you an apology. I thought you were one of Marc's alter egos (yes, I thought he was having a flamewar with himself), but you answered him very well. I know he couldn't have written that.

Marc,

Your blunt sarcasm, which is usually directed at something you know nothing about, isn't working for you. You'd be much more entertaining if you were at least funny.


All you have ever seen is slow motion forms that you think were nonsense. Yes, that's the point.
You haven't seen much, and the rest you don't understand. Instead of scoffing and sarcasm, what you need is some information. You need to seek out and study with a decent teacher of an internal art. Then you'd have some idea what you're talking about. At this time, you don't.

Come to my Chen style class and I'm sure the teacher, Guo QiChen, will be glad to show you some joint locks. Or visit Tim's class, or, I seriously and strongly recommend for you, go to Tim's next seminar in New Mexico. It's in May.
It's very cheap, and they have cheap hotels there. Two days. It'll be a real eye opener for you. I'm not challenging you to a fight, or a Nintendo game, I'm challenging you to actually go learn something about this stuff, at least see a little bit of it. Or shut up.

You ask me why I "seem to believe so much". Well, yes, I actually have rolled a little with a very good BJJ guy, namely Tim. I spent some time with Tim, and with Erik, and I'm clear that internal arts are real, practical martial arts.
It's not really a matter of belief. Those guys can fight, and using internal principles.
That doesn't mean that most of what you read, or find at your local kung fu school, is valid.

What I want to know from you, Marc, is, if you think taiji and internal arts are all crap, why are you so concerned about it? Why don't you go bother someone else?

Marc, it's absolutely clear that you know nothing about internal arts. You say you have some MMA skills, OK, Bogen's Rule, I'll believe that until it matters, and that's great. You're also very curious about internal arts. OK, that's great too.

So, if you're curious, LEARN SOMETHING! This board is a good place to ask some questions, but you have to actually seek out a teacher and study something. Then you'll know something.

Start with one of Bob #2's internal humor workshops. He doesn't advertise them widely, but I'm sure he'd let you in.

I agree. I may not be the most frequent poster on this board, but marc, dude, you need to adjust your attitude. You're automatically assuming that whatever you've heard about IMA, nonsensical or otherwise, is included in the belief system of everyone on this board.

Yes, I have rolled with serious BJJ players, and experienced the wrath of brown belts (I've trained in a small seminar with Royler Gracie and David Adiv, and trained in Australia for awhile with Bruno Panno, and have had the opportunity to roll with Bruno). With BJJ, I have beaten stronger and more experienced players, and I have no doubt that it is an extremely effective MA system.

I now study Xing Yi and can tell you that blows from an IMA can be just as painful, if not more so, than those from MMA (I have taken plenty of knees, etc. during MMA sparring).

Bottom line, certain martial arts work for certain people. What I could think of as a totally useless system, another person could use to mop the floor with a formidable opponent. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's ineffective/worthless, etc.

Take Jerry's advice and either learn IMA first-hand, or stop posting. Asking questions with no intention of learning or gaining insight, has no point. That's just called being a d-bag.

Cheers & Happy Training

"I had a girlfriend from Feng Yuan. What are the odds."
We may need to talk!!! hahaha.
The funny thing is another foreigner I knew prior to meeting my wife married one of her highschool classmates. Small world.

dear guys that are so sick of me but keep writing to me,
if you are a real martial artist you're not going to worry about what happens when you get old or hurt.do all you can when you can!
i'm tired of all this BS "go and train with some
guy somewhere?!like i said many time before,
why don't they enter real fights and then we'll talk.
ps.you guys are just circling around the point!
WHERE ARE THE GREAT,FANTASTIC and GIFTED INTERNAL
MASTERS?if they beleive in their art so bad,
WHY dON'T THEY GO FIGHT for IT, AND show THE WorlD
that it's so GREAT.
ISN't WHAT they USED to DO back IN THE DAYS????????????
GET REAL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11