There is an excellent article in this months Classical Fighting Arts magazine "Jack Dempsey: Master of Xingyiquan" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo comparing the striking methods taught by Jack Dempsey with the methods of Xingyiquan.

I've always recommended Dempsy's "Championship Fighting" as the best book on the mechanics of generating striking power, and the article does an outstanding job comparing Dempsey's theory and practice with traditional Xingyiquan.

interesting,

im not sure if i will ever have the chance to read the article.

Are jack dempseys methods still seen in boxing nowadays? In your opinion has boxing evolved or de'evolved in this sense?

man i gotta read that article...

I have read alot of Dempseys book. It is the asnwer to the modern question that alot of Hsing I people ask... how would Hsing I work in America and on the street etc. Hsing I would work well anyways... but Dempseys book really puts it together.

Odd that a boxer from that area answered todays questions.

That old proverb... don't forget where you first drank water, and look to the past to answer your questions.

Thanks Tim.

I've seen it commended that while the boxers of today are better atheletes, they don't have the raw hitting power that previous generations did in the 40s and 50s. Comments?

D

Mark,
Great point! One thing I noticed also... more fighters from the past were not as bouncy, they preferred the flat footed method, just like hsing i. I think the bouncing is not a good thing

Hi Tim,
Thanks much for the complements on the article. Actually the genesis for that article was things that you and other folks said right here on the Shen Wu forum. In a very real sense that article started here; so thanks to you and the other people who regularly post here.

You should come visit Taiwan again soon. Hope all is well with you and your family.

Take care,
Brian

Here's a link to Jack's book.I would make sure you download it as it dosen't always stay online for very long.

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/box/dempseycfbook.html

We discussed this book on Tomabey a few years ago and came to the conclusion that Dempsey was using SOME components and principles from Yiquan/Xingyi but not all of them.

Tony,

Interesting. Which components/principles were Jack missing?

Tim,

I think the principle of opposite forces was missing,at least as it is applied to Yiquan and Xingyi.Of course opposite forces exist in all forms of movement(we wouldn't be able to stand if they didn't exist)but not in the trained sense.If Jack had got all the principles of Xingyi he would have had a very powerful short range jab that could have been fired in machine gun type mode.His body mechanics had some of the Xingyi principles ie,moving the body as one unit, the falling step and a good level of relaxation.If you look at this clip of round 1 of the Willard fight you will see Dempsey leads each shot with his head.This is the same principle taught by Steve Morris and can improve anyone's power in a matter of minutes.Think of how a cyclist on a tough mountain climb stands on the pedals and shifts his body weight to put maximum power into the pedals.Each move is again led by the head.The body is almost thrown into the opponent with each shot and shifted as a single unit.This leading with the head also allows for correct angulation and Dempsey's punches certainly shook Willards brain.

In conclusion I would say that Jack Dempsey had a superior system to Xingyi due to the fact it is easy to learn and can make anyone an effective puncher in a matter of months.Its also far easier to apply in a real fight as it follows the principles of natural movement and will work under extreme adrenaline stress.If you want to see this system in action I would suggest taking a look at Morris's NHB1 video.Morris seems to have combined Dempsey's natural movement with the explosiveness of Mike Tyson.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VawHgrLvbD4

According to reports Willard suffered thirteen fractures to his jaw,lost six teeth,had numerous fractures to his eye socket,several bust ribs,and a burst ear drum.Strange how he managed to give an interview after the fight,drove home and went out for a meal!!It is also reported that he didn't need medical attention after the fight nor was examined by a doctor.I think his injuries were exaggerated by people trying to discredit Dempsey.Afterall there was talk of plaster of paris on Dempsey's wraps and the use of a steel bolt.Dempsey wasn't popular due to percieved draft dodging and many would have liked to have seen him stripped of the title for cheating.Sure Jack Dempsey could hit like a horse but even he couldn't do that amount of damage with one punch whilst wearing gloves!

"Even an innocent little baby can become a dangerous missile WHEN ITS BODY-WEIGHT IS SET INTO FAST MOTION."


LOFL, I find this oddly funny....

WATCH OUT!! He's gonna throw a BABY!!

Don't laugh, it works. I've won more than one fight by throwing a baby. (not the same baby!)

Thanks for the info Tony.

Great footage! Shot in my hoemtown of Toledo OH.! My father and his father used to go to the fights all the time as a child and he remember seeing the great one, Casius Clay, fight a golden gloves Marine. He rope a doped for 4 rounds never once threw a punch, and then came out in the fifth and knocked the guy out! My dad said it was one of the most amazing things he has ever seen! All this before he became famous of course!

Jake

Howdy Guys,

I was wondering if there is another way to get copy of the article, the magazine was sold out and they dont sale copies of past articles anymore. Thanks

Bill

what article?

Bob#2

Bob the one Tim is talking about at the beginning of this thread

"There is an excellent article in this months Classical Fighting Arts magazine "Jack Dempsey: Master of Xingyiquan" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo comparing the striking methods taught by Jack Dempsey with the methods of Xingyiquan.

I've always recommended Dempsy's "Championship Fighting" as the best book on the mechanics of generating striking power, and the article does an outstanding job comparing Dempsey's theory and practice with traditional Xingyiquan.
"

Martin Burke gave the straight info on the Dempsey plaster of paris lie. Key point is seeing the complete Dempsey-Willard fight. Before the fight starts, both fighters climb into the ring. Their hands are already bandaged/wrapped. Then the gloves are put on.

Hi Tim,

started xingyi a while back and am really enjoying it, but I keep wondering about the conditioning side of things. Surely all the drilling in the world is not going to prepare me for impact, adjustment of structure between techniques etc? I found and downloded Dempsey's book and now find myself magically transported to the Lonsdale boxing store's on-line punchbag page with my credit card at the ready! What are your thoughts on the value of this type of conditioning? and is it more effective to, say, stay traditional(i.e. hit a wooden post/makiwara), a heavy punchbag, or (dare I say it on here) hit a B.O.B. ???

Thanks for your time,

John

Hey, whats wrong with hitting BOB? How about Bob#2?
Jake

Bob#2s hit back.

I recommend starting your own Xingyi classes at all the retirement homes in your county. Not only will you gain the warm contentment from helping geriatric folks, you will also be able to develope explosvive punching power without the worry of resiprication.

Hairry Holidays!
Bob#2

Hi John,

If you want to pursue Xingyiquan as a martial art, it is absolutely essential to supplement whatever basic movement and forms training you may practice with a range of conditioning methods, in preparation for full contact sparring.

I recommend spending a lot of time working on a heavy bag, and the BOB is excellent, but a little expensive.

In addition to bag work, I'd also recommend spending a great amount of time doing partner training with focus mits or Thai pads and a lot of supplementary cardio work, as well as some type of strength training.

If you want to improve your Xingyi practice then you probably should get Tim's very nice book "Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development"

Thanks,
Richard

Oh yeah, and get my book.

Thanks Richard.

Thanks for your thoughts Tim - much appreciated ;o)

p.s. Already got your "very nice book". Bought two copies in fact, because I lent the first one out to a classmate in a fit of enthusiasm and the bugger never returned it before he left town! Never mind, its a small world and what goes around comes around. I have a big beng saved up for him (cue evil laugh) "MWAH HAH HAH HAH".