So from my first few convos on here, one major theme has(and always does) come up. Does every fight in the ring go to the ground? Also, can you do well in MMA without always going to the ground?

Instead of just theorizing I am going to present some evidence. Yes these people can handle themselves on the ground if it gets taken there but prefer to stay standing.

Cung Le (who just had a kick ass fight with frank)
Chuck Liddel
Forest Griffen
Rampage Jackson
....Im drawing a blank for other big names (even though I know there are more, haha).

Every one of these people can handle themselves on the ground if need be, but would rather keep it standing.

So here is the big question: If you train solely standup, takedown defence, and scrambling, is it a reasonable method for the ring? If this is so, can one take the traditional arts and drill takedown defence and scrambling and do well in the ring?

Why are you posting this stuff in the CMA areas??

One thing you do not realize...all those cats (Cung Le is the exception, but it was not Cung's skill that kept him off the ground, it was Franks arrogance of not really taking him to the ground) are excellent grapplers. Hence their ability to avoid it. Each one of those guys got taken down 10,000 times before developing such a great game.

Jake

Cro Cop.
got kicked in the head.
Tim Sylvia.
lost his contract.
Frank Shamrock.
will never stand with a striker again.


Cung Le wrestled at the collegiate level and is very hard to take down, just like Chuck. And Rampage.

Jake I am posting it here because that is what the topic is about. Can one take the traditional arts to the ring and be effective? I do realize that which is why i said, "Every one of these people can handle themselves on the ground if need be, but would rather keep it standing."

As for Cung Le, he wrestled in high school and college. He also studies Brazilian Jujitsu. I am pretty sure he knows how to handle himself on the ground. He also has awesome conditioning which counts for a lot at that range. As for why Shamrock didn't take him down, if you watch the fight, you will notice that he tried twice and Cung Scrambled out of it. coming from his sanshou back ground, I think it is pretty safe to say that it is damn hard to get him down.

I feel Shamrock was trying to keep it standing to "prove" something. I realize Cung wrestled in college and HS, but lets all be honest, he has not been tested on the ground as of yet! That is the only reason I made the comment I did. I really wanted to see him tested by Shamrock.
Kelly -
Good luck with your ventures. You are convinced of something, and have an answer for everything. I am sure we all look forward to you using Xing Yi, Taiji, and Bagua on the ground in a MMA fight. Please post the vid here, and I will be the first to apologize for my doubting ways.
Cheers
Jake

Jake, yah Shamrock was definitely trying to prove something as they talked about it in the pre and post fight interviews. No cung has not been tested on the ground, at least on television. This does not mean however that he wouldn't be able to handle himself there. I seriously doubt that he jumped from sanshou to mma without finding a way to be comfortable on the ground.

I dont believe I have an answer for anything at all. My comments are merely my educated guess. Have I competed yet, no. Have I tested some of my ideas, yes. Have I failed sometimes and succeeded at others, yes also. My plan is to start fighting in early sept lat august. I will definitely show my vids of me getting knocked out, haha.

The common thread is "wrestling"!

This is why what I teach is focused greatly on the "clinch".

With a solid clinch game, I can tie a good striker up and take him down...where he doesn't want to be, with a good BJJ guy I can avoid his takedowns and keep in on their feet...where they don't want to be.

But it takes a lot of hard work and solid training with "real" wrestlers to get there.

I don't think Frank could of taken Le down. Le isn't that great on the ground. In his fight before, he throw the guy and appeared clueless to what to do from there.

The "sprawl and brawl" guys are good wrestlers. You must develop those skills. It takes a long time. Forrest wasn't that great of a wrestler. He admitted it. Then, he went to train with Randy and a bunch of wrestlers and improved. He is still not super, but OK.

Liddell is the King of "Sprawl and Brawl". His first line of defense is his footwork and second is his wrestling. People forget he was a high level wrestler. Tito had no chance, for Chuck was a better wrestler.

Go to a wrestling club and train for a year.

It does seem like a ton of guys can come simply a wrestling back ground and do pretty damn well for themselves. I think it has more to do with the way they train though.

More with the way they train than...?

"" Good luck with your ventures. You are convinced of something, and have an answer for everything. I am sure we all look forward to you using Xing Yi, Taiji, and Bagua on the ground in a MMA fight. Please post the vid here, and I will be the first to apologize for my doubting ways.
Cheers "" I second these thoughts.

Additionally, Wrestlers train in a variety of important ways;
-live
-hard
-regularly
-with coaches
-with weights
-for years
-they fight for scholarships

Someone with this background has an enormous leg up on your average 'recreational' martial artist or internet wizard.

www.rivercitypc.blogspot.com

Excellent points Jason!
Jake

I second that!!!!

"More with the way they train than...?"

I am saying that it has more to do with the way they train than the actual style itself. Wrestlers train on a daily basis and train hard. All of those things Jason said are true. If someone were to train like that in any style they would be damn good, and those who do are.

if youre gonna compete in mixed martial arts, wouldnt it make sense to "mix" your martial arts up a little?

and if you havent noticed, the best fighters and all of the current champions have some ind of wrestling grappling in their backround.

the inherent weakness of styles such as tai ji or ba gua or wing chun, is that for all their 'applicability' they lack almost any resemblance of non-cooperative sparring. It's training hard at this that engenders transfer to competition or self defense. Without it, I don't believe it matters 'how hard' you train in tai ji, if it has no sparring, it's just a cute dance.

I agree. However there are schools that train non-cooperative. In taiji schools it starts with pushing hands/sticky hands, then circling hands, then controlled sparring, then freestyle. if you do all of these, of course you will be ready. Also i believe that going through this process step by step, you will be better than just jumping into free sparring like so many schools.

Kelly where are these taiji schools that train non co-operative. I was in one we did push hands fixed and freestyle then sparring. But seeing as the guy teaching had no idea I would have learnt as much in the schoolyard when I was 10. I even thought it was great when I entered a CMA full contact tournament and won my fight . I attributed this to my qi and hours spent holding stances . If you are training as hard as most CMA guys then just being naturally athletic or having played a contact sport (rugby or american football)will put you head and shoulders above most of your peer group.
Then again some guys like being a medium sized fish in a puddle

Do yourself a favour and find a good judo/wrestling/bjj coach.
Then you will find out what real timing sensitivity and technique is all about when someone is trying to throw you hard or submit you.

"Then you will find out what real timing sensitivity and technique is all about when someone is trying to throw you hard or submit you."

Sure because we all know that being thrown by a taiji person is much softer than being thrown by a judo person. Oh yah and taiji joint locks dont hurt as well. Geez, how could I have forgotten that!? I'm going right now! please.... you are living in a fantasy.

Even ask Mr. Cartmell. Have him throw you using taiji or put you in a chin na hold. After you have done that, you tell me if they aren't as effective.

As for where are the schools. Well Master Lu's for starters. Any of the Tang Shao Tao schools do and they frequently hold full contact tournaments. Any of the Hsing Ming schools under wang shu jin do as well. Bruce Frantzis teaches it as well to advanced students. Dont forget Tim's. Too many to list man. (not to mention I dont know them all, haha.)

Listen man I trained in Tims , before that almost everything in CMA that I was taught was a load of crap. People who couldnt apply a throw or joint lock against someone resisting trying to teach someone else how to do it. A 7 year old girl could choke me out or finger lock me if I let her you idiot.
Your the one living in the fantasy Just go and compete somewhere anywhere and see how you get on .

Dont know much about Tang Shou Tao but good for them if they do full contact , do you ?
Why dont you try them out ?
Or go to Tims ?
Or do something other than writing •••• on the internet !

Kelly I see from your profile your in SLC , I trained there for a while with Eddie Edmunds

www.fusionbjj.com

Nice guys
or theres the machados

www.slcbjj.com

or if grappling isnt your thing there is an excellent thai boxing school

http://www.thaiboxutah.com/training/mt.shtml

or judo

http://web.mac.com/juliaconnelly/StarsJudo/home.html

or since you like boxing

lash Academy


751 West 800 South


Salt Lake City


UT


84104


801-359-6050