Of the Five Element Fist of hsing yi the one that has always baffled me the most was heng (crossing) fist.

I was wondering if any of the folks had any practical ideas on 1. how to do it "right" and 2. what is it for (combat application)?

I realize that sounds like a beginners question but most of what I have seen, read, or been told regarding heng/crossing fist does not really seem to work for me.

The only exception is that I have had some luck using it as a trip/throw; but I could never get it to work as a strike. The few times I have tried I ended up injuring my elbow while the opponent/sparring partner just kind of laughed.

Thanks for any and all advice.
Take care,
Brian

Brian,
I can certainly relate to your predicament!
My trainer and I were initially taught to strike
using the top of the fist which we sarcastically
referred to as the "Little Debbie fist" due to the resemblance to a pastry made by that company
called a "Pecan Twirl". Needless to say we could never develop a lot of power with this. If however you cross with the motion and use a backfist or hammerfist to strike , you should be able in conjunction with the turn of the waist to deliver a considerable blow. Also I think you are looking in the right direction with the throws.
Think of doing Crossing while holding an arm and I think you will see applications for Chin-Na and throws that will readily present themselves.

Hope this helps,

Good Training!
Jason Connelly

Hi Brian,
Heng Quan is not a strike per se. The major action of Heng Quan is a 'filing motion' done along the length of the forearm as it twists. The power of the movement is generated from the turning of the hips. The 'techniques' of Heng Quan usually involve deflecting incoming force along tangents outside the body, or as throws with the arm contacting the opponent's torso. Like Jason said above, there are also a number of elbow locking techniques that use the Heng Quan movement.

Thanks Jason and Tim,
Your comments were quite helpful. Tim, it was interesting to hear you use the phrase "filing motion". I remembered your use of that phrase in your Chin Na book, so I got that out and reviewed those sections. I found that very helpful.

Jason, the "little Debbie fist" comment cracked me up. Yeah, there is alot of truth in that comment. I remember the brand name from the days of my youth and from Zippy the Pinhead.

Thanks again (Tim, did the Taiwan Wu Lin magazine ever get to you?, if not I will resend a copy, my "payment" for writing that was copies of the issue so I can resend if necessary)

Brian

Hi Brian,
I received the magazine. I sent you an e mail, I guess it didn't arrive. Thanks very much for the review, it's much appreciated. I'll send a copy of the article to Dan Miller. Thanks again,
Tim

Hi Brian,

No disagreement with the use of Heng for throwing (or locking for that matter) - it's well useful in that regard however it can indeed be used as an effective strike - I've found it works particularly well if you use an inverted Luo Xing Quan with the Hebei penetrating ("bursting" type dark Jing. This stops the power dissipation inherent in doing it the way it tends to get done in modern "Wushu-type Xing Yi" forms. The idea is to knock the wind out of the guy rather than dropping him. Really it's like an upside down Beng on the end of your Heng (which is over and done with technically), as Tim notes above.

Keep the striking hand leading (i.e. well ahead of the body even before the punch lands) - you can lose power by having too big a bend in the elbow, and by leaving the body contact too late in the technique. You also need to use his forward motion to get a good effect - forestall him basically.

Many people (myself included) tried the strike on the outside of the attack and it doesn't appear to work all that well - I was taught that the best application is on the inside of the attack (which obviously requires decent timing) - works quite nicely against a strong lead hand beng, low tzuann or pao/Ma etc. type attack to your torso (works even better with the Jian - you can deflect and strike simultaneously with the same action, again on the inside of the attack seems to work better). Although it's "cheating" a bit for Hebei style (at least my branch of it), you can keep the deflecting hand a little forward of your torso - seems to make it work better and doesn't leave you so open to a quick Beng or Pi counter, and you can always hit him with a quick Tai if you get in a scrape. I've seen a few people who do it like this in their forms in any case.

As ever, practice is the key to making these things work. Don't give up on methods that our esteemed predecessors found useful just because they take a lot of work. I'd say in this case spot on timing combined with sensible position is 75% of making it work.

As you know Xing Yi is a martial art for people who like to work hard and don't get bored easily

All the best mate,

Damon