Sparring

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Sparring

   By Shooter on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 02:22 pm: Edit Post

Don't discard or kill the flinch response. Learn how to convert it to simple movement like Ward-off, Press, etc. Like I wrote in the "Peng" thread on KFO, the flinch is the catalyst to TC's tactical movment.

As it becomes more understood, it also serves as a launch-pad for proactive (attack, evade, etc) movement.

One of the things I have newbies do for impact training and lessening shock is to have them stand at arm's length from each other and square on so that their shoulders and hips are parallel to each other. They work half-speed, straight punches that land softly in the middle of the face. Instead of allowing the punch to hit there though, they're shown how to exercise their power of choiice in where the punch will land and how, if they tilt their head forward at the proper time, they can jam the punch with a head-butt. Instead of just tilting the head forward, angle it to one side so that the fist lands on the Perietal bone of the skull. This is just an idea that is carried overr to more dynamic sparring once the fear of getting hit is converted to an opportunity to punish the other person. The main focus of this type of drill as I teach it is to show people how they're able to transfer impact along manageable lines in their structure. The posture described in the drill is supposed to transfer the force throught the spine and hips so that it is felt in the knees (at least that's where I feel it whenever I practice the head-jam or have used it outside of training).

The drill is an idea that introduces the concept of having the power of choice in where one takes a blow, and opens the door to individuals exploring their own methods of shock transfer.

As you wrote, Water Dragon, slowly turn up the heat as you incorporate footwork and other striking skills.

I would discourage having anyone under the age of 14 doing any kind of high-impact training which involves bag-work or even hitting focus pads. Games which challenge your son's hand-eye and footwork are going to be of greater benefit. Keep it fun and put in the time. No rush.


   By Tim on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 06:52 pm: Edit Post

Wolf,
Although I believe contact sparring is the best way to develop a fighting mindset, other practices are beneficial. For example, practicing skill based exercises and forms with the proper focus of the intent will go a long way toward training students to avoid either rage or denial when they actually do spar or fight. Also, use of the imagination during solo practice (visualization stuff, imagine the heavy bag is an enemy etc) also helps develop the fighting mindset. I think it is also important that the teacher remind the students on a regular basis of the dangers of real violence. It is important to have a healthy respect for what could happen to you, and it helps balance the fear/aggression ratio.

As far as the methods and progression of sparring practices, we use methods similar to the ones' Water Dragon and Shooter describe above. Although we start new students off with basic sparring drills and techniques their first week of class, we are careful not to let it get too intense too soon. First defensive skills are taught. As the student becomes proficient, the speed and force of the attacks are gradually increased. Besides defense against striking attacks, there is a heavy emphasis on defending and countering standing grappling attacks (the common ones, headlocks, bearhugs, grab and punch...) as these are the most likely attacks one will run into on the street. At the same time, basic escapes and reversals from the most common ground positions are also taught and practiced (head and arm position, top mount...). Just as with the striking, gradually the amount of resistance is increased. This type of training leads into free sparring in a relatively short period of time. Intermediate students also begin practicing 'scenario' types of free sparring, designed to hone specific skill sets. For example, one student wears gloves and is only allowed to strike while his opponent is only allowed to wrestle. Within the constraints of the drill, any appropriate technique is allowed. Advanced students spar with varying amounts of force, depending on the amount of protective gear worn, and most often it is in a free format; the fighters are allowed to punch, kick, knee, throw and strike and grapple on the ground until there is a submission.


   By CoolHandLuke on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 10:44 pm: Edit Post

As usual, quite a bit of speculation and opinion proferred by "we all know who"-not Tim

This is a public forum where posting is allowed - not a read-only forum.

One certainly does not need permission to post most anything.

So by all means continue to engage in one's obsessive speculation and whimsical fantasy.

However one's continued hypothetical ramblings on the subject might make for an interesting psychological study.


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, January 09, 2002 - 10:56 pm: Edit Post

YEAH! You obsessively, speculatin', whimsicatin', fantasical CANADIANS!

STAY UP THERE AND EAT YOUR BACCON AND ENDORPHIN FREE TUNA, SWIRLL YOUR CHI AND WAIT FOR THE GROUND TO THAW!


   By Shane on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 02:30 am: Edit Post

Water Dragon,

What's a middle bell?
(I study Bagua, very little XingYi)


   By Water Dragon on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 02:18 pm: Edit Post

Shane, middle bell is just a term we use for training. It concerns training for the torso are. Lower bell is legs, upper bell is arms. Too lazy to type more about it right now.


   By Shane on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 02:36 pm: Edit Post

Water Dragon,

"we" who?

Why not just say 'torso' or 'legs' instead of inventing an eccentric two-word term for something so simple? I'd like to understand. So, when your upper bell, middle bell and lower bell are all rested up can you help me understand. Put your minor bells(?) on the keyboard and type up a reason so that I can make an informed decision about how I should refer to my body parts while training.

I don't intend to be antagonistic I'm just curious. It's like when folks call a water heater
a "hot water heater"... it makes me want to ask
"why heat hot water?" So far, no one has helped me understand that one. And the older I get, the more I'd like to know these things.

What do you call your head?

what do you call your feet?

Is there a Xing-Yi term for penis?

I've missed out on so much.


   By Water Dragon on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 03:58 pm: Edit Post

Hey Shane,
Don’t make it out to be something it’s not. It’s basically nothing more than a way to categorize body work.

If I do stance holding, walking drills, footwork drills, etc, that would be lower bell work.
If I do things like Iron Body, compressing the spine, etc, that would be middle bell work.
If I do things like Iron Palm, Chinese Push ups, arm banging, etc, that would be upper bell work.

I’m sure I could call it leg work, arm work, and torso work. I could also call it top, bottom, and middle. I could even not call it anything and just do the damn exercises. “Bell” is a term that was used when I was first taught. As I learn new stuff, it’s explained in terms of “This is for you lower/middle/upper bell.”

I just figured it was a common term like stance work, or push hands. Guess I was wrong. Maybe I should quit calling running and skipping rope cardio. Why would I want to make up a word for it?


   By Shane on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 04:37 pm: Edit Post

isn't cardio short for cardiovascular?

thanks for the explanation.. I'm afraid it
didn't help me understand though.


   By Sowsear on Thursday, January 10, 2002 - 07:40 pm: Edit Post

You are all funny people. This board is better than any comedy show or circus clown act. I once did the hairy palms training and it was really good for me. I once fought my own reflection and won, just had to pick up the glass afterwards. I used to pay girls to wrestle with me, but I always let them win--what's that all about? I don't really know. But I do know--I miss the intellectual reflections of that great professor of martial farts, Big-Balled Patty. She/he is the bomb. For old time-sake, won't You post again BBP? I miss You!!!!!! Boo-hoo hoo hoo . . . . . . . Big Balled Patty . . . . please enlighten us, oh Great One!


   By Quasimoto on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 11:09 am: Edit Post

Maybe that Bell terminology came about from someone having their "Bell rung" of course that does not bode well for the ringie only the ringer. Just a thought.

Quasimoto
When it comes to humpin I put BBB to Shame!


   By Josh (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

Hi,
I have a small amount of experience doing internal arts(mostly hsing i and pakua) and have done some work with an excercise called rou shou (soft hands?)in the context of pakua and found that it has signifigant benefits in terms of using technique during free sparring(with other internal guys and otherwise). I have heard of people using this excersize in reference to hsing i and have done some experimenting on my own and found that hsing i techniques seem to work well in this context. I am curious to hear of other peoples experience with this particular excersize. Also, my brother is a shotokan karate practitioner and we often do rou shou together; I've found it interesting to experience his flavor (influenced by shotokan) during the excersize. Sometimes we use it as a sort of middleman to ground fighting(mostly because we are brothers and we get sort of out of hand; lots of broken furniture...). One other thing that I wanted to ask is if anyone has noticed any correlation between the mindset of shotokan and that of hsing i. It's been interesting comparing with my brother and I've found some pretty interesting similarities. Not meant as a "karate came from hsing i" just similarities that make sparring very interesting. Josh


   By Blakeism (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 07:14 am: Edit Post

I've never heard of traditional internals sparring. Show me in the classics where it states sparring was part of the curriculum to prove me wrong (push hands doesn't count). I think it's mostly a new age deal (San Shou and all).


   By Shane on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 01:38 pm: Edit Post

you think sparring is mostly a new age deal?


   By Josh (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 03:34 pm: Edit Post

Hi,
Not to sound like a jerk; but how did "traditional" people get competent fighting ability without sparring and combat training? In regards to rou shou and your comment about push hands, rou shou(as far as my limited experience goes with it) is sort of like push hands. You still begin in a fixed position(later you move in different stepping patterns). The hands stay connected(wrists and forearms) as the arms make circles. Add pushing, striking, joint locks , etc. and wallah! I dunno, it's fun and my whole point was that it seems to help my sparring alot. Out of curiousity, what is a new age deal?Josh


   By chris hein on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 03:51 pm: Edit Post

Come on Josh, haven't' you seen the guys at the physic fair with their crystals, and pyramids, and going at it with full contact sparing! every one knows that the new agers are into sparring. Shamanism and kumite, that's there slogan! blakeism, I don't know where you come up with this crap?! Nor do i know how you would have read the "classics", can you read chinese? Hey I know some one who dose, Hmmm he spent allot of time studying the "internals" in china with the best people around. And this fellow seems to think there was and is lots of sparring going on.

I don't know blakeism, maybe in your 12 years of life, you've been to china, and mastered the "internals", but i think you should stick with carlos castaneta and his folks, I'm sure they got all the sparring you can handle!


   By Blakeism (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 04:59 pm: Edit Post

Refer back to Ron's post on kfo:http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=18e7b72e6bed47c547d53b945 6cecf1f&threadid=22650
it states:
"If by sanshou you mean free fighting, it was more or less covered in the posture applications and push hands training." <--notice it does not say sparring.

The experience came mostly by getting into real fights.


   By Shane on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 06:11 pm: Edit Post

Blakeism- oatmeal. You should move in with Ron.
You've obviously decided what he says is gospel and maybe with you're winning personality he'll overlook the fact that you misunderstand everything he says.

Chris- are you going to update your profile to include 'Sumo' now? (for those who weren't around- some sumo wrestlers visited Shen Wu recently. Chris put on a mawashi and droped four of them at their own game. Each guy was much larger & heavier than Chris and each larger and more experience than the next). It was great!


   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit Post

Blakeism, sticking hands only begins as preset movmements. As one progresses, it turns more and more into a freeflow exchange that is essentially the precursor to free sparring. Sparring does not necessarily have to be done according to any particular set of rules (as I found out the hard way). Your imagination is the limit. As for the classics not mentioning it, haven't you come across numerous accounts of challengers offering to "cross hands" (the beginning position of most sticking hands)with a fighter? Did you really think they were asking to perform some pre-arranged drill with the challenged? The classics don't mention sparring much because it is not the end-all of MAs. The old masters probably figured its use was so obvious that it didn't need specific mention. Not to minimize other forms of training, but why limit yourself unnecessarily?


   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 11:06 am: Edit Post

BTW, Shane, I think that refering to various sections of the body as "bells" is a poetic chinese way of naming techniques ("royal nephew serves tea, 2 sheep grapple the farmer's jewels," etc.). The idea is that you are protected as if by a metal dome, like a bell, get it? For instance, "upper bell" would refer to the protection weaved around your upper body (ideally) by your conditioned bridge arms. Another name for "iron vest" is "golden bell", I believe.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

BTW, Shane, I think that refering to various sections of the body as "bells" is a poetic chinese way of naming techniques ("royal nephew serves tea, 2 sheep grapple the farmer's jewels," etc.). The idea is that you are protected as if by a metal dome, like a bell, get it? For instance, "upper bell" would refer to the protection weaved around your upper body (ideally) by your conditioned bridge arms. Another name for "iron vest" is "golden bell", I believe.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

oops, sorry, I posted it twice.


   By Miguel Parga (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 05:04 pm: Edit Post

Hi Josh:
I've done lots of Rou Shou by another name. In the style I practice it's called sensitive hand. I also spent 8 years of my life studying Shotokan way before I even knew what an internal art was. My bet is that if you're doing your Rou Shou well, your brother has no chance to keep up with you.
I had an experience in a so called "external" art where some of the guys wanted me to show them what Sticky Hands was and they just couldn't follow me at all. If that souded like I was putting down their art, I didn't mean to. Their style had a lot of great thing about it, that I'm sure, had I been playing their game, I would have been in trouble.
Anyway, just to comment on the other posts: you defenetely need sparring, I don't care what anybody says. Rou Shou is a great bridge into it.
Sorry for rambling.

Peace
Miguel


   By Josh (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:53 pm: Edit Post

Hi,
Thanks for the message,Miguel. It's odd, my brother has managed to incorporate some of his shotokan into rou shou pretty well. He doesn't do alot of changing direction and angles in one strike, but he's managed to come up with some interesting stuff. We have been playing around alot with using rou shou as a bridge into groundfighting which is fun too. Josh.


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