Thanks Foo you convinced me not to study with you

Hi anonymous fellas! If a donkey kicks one of yous guys in the assssss, will you feel it kicking you? How many donkeys have you killed lately sparring??

Diu that doesn't make any sense at all. We're not talking about standing there and taking a hit. What kind of xing yi do you pratice?

How about I kick you in the ass? How about I take you down and pummel your head until you look a tomato? Idiot!

I must say that I am torn between writing and not writing this reply, but i'll see if I can't shed some light here. Tim, I must say that you are the only reason that I have actually voiced my opinion here as you have actually been civil and intelligent in your posts, unlike several others who have seen fit to post nothing but racism, negativity and sarcasm. So here it goes....

I think the issue at hand here is respect. Sifu Tuttle is an extremely knowledgeable and talented man who is always welcoming and warm to those who wish to learn from him. His skill commands the respect of many high level martial artists and his relationship with his students is second to none. It is, therefore, taken very personally by all members of the club when someone like "ARB" (who has in all liklihood been to our club only a handful of times and had occasion to actually meet Sifu Tuttle once or twice) posts something like he has, saying that he is 'disappointed' with Sifu's teachings (that he has made, obviously, no effort to understand or learn). He (whoever he is) did not even approach Sifu to discuss his questions before cutting him down in public. This is simply a disrespectful thing to do, and I think that a good deal of the backlash expressed on this board is simply in response to that(yes, we all know Foo gets a little carried away at times, but for those who know her, it's certainly a part of her charm! ).

The point that Foo made, however, was precisely correct. The 6 harmony Xing-Yi which is taught at our club is that which was taught by Grandmaster Yua Hua Long to Sifu Tuttle(who carries the Grandmaster's lineage). Our style is largely unaltered and true to its long history; much of the training is deadly. Let's not forget that Xing-Yi was developed and used on the ancient battlefield for its speed and efficiency at debilitating and killing what was often many opponents. Our club has a large number of two-person drills and training exercises of which 4 corners is only one. These drills are to both build reflexes and body power, but are structured such that proper applications of the animal forms become clear. This structure also helps one focus more on achieving and maintaining proper body structure and form so that when one truly needs to fight(hopefully never), the body is trained to move corectly such that both receiving and issuing power happen naturally. Should one never need to fight (what we want), then at least one has spent time training their body effectively for proper posture and structure such that there are maximum health and personal benifits to one's training.

I am not particularly well versed in other styles of Xing-Yi, so I will make no comparisons to them, but to engage in full contact sparring with 6 Harmony Xing-Yi, one has several choices:

1 - No holds barred sparring.

Ridiculous–period. No one wants gouged eyeballs, broken joints, limbs, head, spine, ruptured kidneys and a stopped heart (a good deal of what proper xing-yi will teach you).

2 - Restrict the fight to 'fair' and non lethal attacks/defenses.

This option makes no (little?) sense in terms of learning a traditional martial art. It would exclude so much of the art itself that one might as well take up kickboxing for sport, because that is all that would be left; a watered down sport that had some loose ties to Xing-Yi...this is not martial arts. Sort of like training for the 100m dash by hopping in a potato sack; you're learning a skill, but you must evaluate what that skill is and what level of training it can take you to.

This is not to put down sparring at all, but it must be understood what sparring is. Sparring is a sport. It has its own rules and strategies that have as an objective the scoring of points. One can develop skill in sparring and get good at winning points. Many people enjoy this (and I can understand the fun one may take from such endeavours), and that is perfectly fine. The objective of Xing-Yi in a fight, however, is and always has been immediate and efficient dispensing of the opponent. Major injury and/or death of the opponent is the goal of the art and the entire style of the animal movements are designed to do just that. You can't separate Xing-Yi and deadly and still have Xing-Yi.

This is not to say that our club is a bunch of death crazy maniacs. Quite to the contrary, our club is very friendly and the people are good, honest, and virtuous people. The philosophy of the club is simply different from many, that is all. Our goals are to learn the knowledge and practice of these extraordinary martial arts in order no nurture and develop the high level skills that they can lead to. This involes all sorts of training, from forms,drills and strength training to Qi-Gong and meditation and everything in between.

And so what brought on this whole firey thread was the simple fact that this 'ARB' fellow hadn't even the courtesy to ask the simple question which I have answered here (in more detail than I had originally intended, no less ).

Finally (if anyone has gotten this far!), I shall attempt to summarize the 4 corners drill as Tim has so kindly asked. The drill is based around triangle stepping where partners step on the 4 corners of a square (usually imagined) and move along the diagonals. (Not by construct, mind you, but only as a description of what is going on.) "Opponents", for lack of a better word, square off and step to their respective right into an eagle posture and then move to the center and 'strike' with various body parts. After a strike the person retreats to the corner the came from, sidesteps to the opposite corner(using eagle, again) and mirrors the previous strike. The third time, the people (instead of striking) glide past one another, switching sides. The pattern repeats for a specific body hit on that side, and then continues in that way for the enire set of strikes. The movements are the same for both persons so ribs hit ribs followed by hips&hips, shoulders, chest, knees... The drill is often finished with an application that each person takes turn practicing on the other(while still going around the 4 corners). The main objectives of the drill are body hardening and learning to strike with all parts of the body.

I think I shall end here, for I grow weary of all this typing. I hope I have cleared the air a little here and done something more than disseminate my own philosophical agenda. Perhaps a little understanding has been found?

Thanks to anyone who has taken time to read this all.
Best wishes in your training Tim.

A few points:

Xing Yi is not known as a "killing" art. It is known as a solid striking art. There are stories of individuals who had enough power to kill a man with their strikes. Why is this important? Look at boxing. Don't you think a solid right cross from Tyson or Lewis could kill a man? I'd bet money that their punch would break an untrained man's neck. If boxer's spar regualrly, why can't Xing Yi. No one's suggesting you go full power. Neither Boxers nor Muay Thai fighters do. If you can't do this, my question would be "Why can't you control you're power?" Heck, I'm a Shuai Chiao man and I can control my power when throwing people over my back. I also pull so they land on their back instead of their head.

If you reply is "That is not the same as real fighting so I won't respond correctly" my answer would be that internal arts are thinking arts. If you can't decide how harshly you will respond, you may be studying good stuff, but it's not Gong Fu.

Water Dragon,

If you do not know Xing-Yi as a killing art, you do not know Xing-Yi. (Tai-chi was never just for exercise either, but many people seem to have forgotten this as well)

However, you are certainly correct. At the high level, one should be able to control their skill such that they do not harm an opponent, no one is disputing this. The point I make is that our style of Xing-Yi is largely comprised of animal movements that are specifically designed to do things like breaking necks and joints. It is very easy to learn a lot of deadly Xing-Yi in a short time, but it takes many years to master that skill. For a beginning student (or even one that had practiced for a few years) to attempt to apply these lethal techniques in a sparring situation without actually causing harm is very risky, since control at that level is necessarily low. The delivery of the attack will necessarily be disrupted and the student will find it harder to find power in connection and flow from always 'breaking' the power of the blow by 'pulling' their hits. Further, one slip or misjudgement on the part of either sparring partner and someone is going to the hospital. It is not stories of a few people who had the power to kill with a strike that worry me; it is the fact that I know a good number of my classmates could kill or seriously injure me using remarkably little power that worries me. In Xing-Yi it is very easy to not know your own power and the line between effective and lethal is very thin, and that makes it dangerous. (unless we go back to option 2 above)

You are absolutely right that the internals are thinking arts. We, therefore, spend time training our own bodies by learning and understanding the principles that the style is set upon. Sparring teaches one very little; time learning a martial art is best spent otherwise. The saying is that 'the fight should be over in 3 moves, if it is not, you are doing something wrong'. At the high level, the fight is over at the first touch; this is the level we aspire to and sparring necessarily takes one on a path that detracts from that goal. The skills one will learn in sparring are low level fighting 'skills' that are great if you want to learn to be better at sparring or to get involved in an 'exciting' bar fight(or UFC), but they are detrimental to focusing on learning Xing-Yi of its own right(which will produce more power and better control than sparring can teach)

These are simply the philosophies (as I interpret them, anyhow) of our club. We believe in them and train by them and I have many very skilled classmates and an unimaginably talented Sifu that are testament to the fact that it is effective. The beauty of a rich martial culture is that if one does not understand the traning of a particular club, there are many more to choose from. I don't believe sparring to be 'good' or 'bad', only that it is not as effective a teaching or training tool as the many other things we have at our disposal when the goals of training are as we have set them out to be as I have explained. It has its time and place, and that is perfectly ok. Many people obviously find it suits their training, but we do not; simple as that.

Thanks for reading and happy training!

Hey Justin,
Looks like we might have a good discussion going here. If we can all keep it civil, we might all get something good from this thread. Here’s my counterpoints. Sparring and controlling power have nothing to do with “pulling” punches. I can deliver connected blows and gauge how much power I issue in the following ways: I can break my structure enough so that all you feel is a light tap. I can hit you with correct structure but no mechanic to cause mediocre pain. If we want to start turning up the notches I usually do the following. I’ll open and close the kua but not use any of the power in my spine. Next, I’ll engage the spring in the chest area, but not the lower spine. Finally, if I want to go all out, I’ll engage the spring in my lower spine. Unfortunately, that’s the extent of my understanding and all the power can bring to bear.

The point is, in all of these methods, I am following through on my punch. What I am doing is controlling the amount of power I allow myself to emit. If I understand enough to purposely de-activate a power vector, I can also activate it at will. Especially when you consider that I spen a lot of time on the heavy bag working for maximum power. Depending on the situation, I can also control my power by controllong my speed. It’s the idea of my having the ability top control these things that lets me spar on different levels without compromising my training.

In regards to “deadliness” of technique, as I have stated before, I am primarily a Shuai Chiao man in regards to technique. (Well, my strategies and how I react at contact all come from Taiji Tui Shou, so I don’t know how “pure you want to consider me. Anyway, Shuai Chiao throws are based on a couple basic things. We have a set of throws that pin the leg so that the knee breaks from the velocity of the throw. We have a set of Qin na that use the opponents weight during the fall to break said limb. We also have a Jing method that basically pile drives the other person into the ground. Still, we manage to spar at speed with these techniques. We simply don’t do the Na, don’t set the break, or don’t Fa Jing the throw. Even if this means I can’t pull the Black Hand in a fight, the sparring methods we use will suffice 95 % of the time. In fact, I’ll say it’s more important to be able to NOT kill someone than be able to do it. There are both moral and legal implications for my reasoning.

As far as the ability to kill with a blow, I have trouble believing that. If that is the case, I should be able to do this, and I don’t think I can. I’ve mentioned the mechanics I have. I also have a pot belly even though I’m thin, that should give you a good idea where I stand in the arts. I just don’t think I’m able to do this.

Now, to the sparring. I’ve met too many people with considerable skill in CMA who just can’t fight. They have plenty of power, good skills, and by all means they should be able to dominate. But when you can cajole them into sparring, they fall apart at even medium intensity. Why is this? Well. Here’s my opinion. Sparring doesn’t teach what most people think it does. Sparring teaches you what the Chinese call “opportunity” That is, the ability to see an opening and take it within an instant. The only way to really learn that is by failure. Invest in loss so to speak. You need to be hit a few times to see the opportunity. You need to learn what really works and what doesn’t by actually going out there and trying it. The beautiful thing about CMA is that once you do this, you have so many resources to improve. When you discover your inadequacies in sparring, you can go back into the form work, standing, technique practice and hand matching to fix it. Then you go back out and spar to gauge yourself again.

Looking forward to your reply.

Hey Justin what you said was interesting. It seems that everybody who practices the "deadly arts" say the exact same thing, more or less. Another interesting thing is that all these non-sparring deadly arts have in common is that none of them can fight for real. But, they can always tell you how they can maim or kill you in detail.

"you can separate xing yi and deadly and still have xing yi", ppllleeeaaassseee...

I bet that if you meet up with a Thai boxer he'd only have to kick you once in the leg and you'd be done. They spar. Try taking a shot on the ribs from a western boxer, you'd collapse. They spar. A wrestler (greco roman/freestyle/shuai chiao/sumo/judo)can slam you down so hard you'd see cartoon stars. They spar. All of these guys can hit or throw you even if you're trying to fight back. They never say our art is too deadly to spar with. The fact is these arts are just as deadly as Xing Yi. They Spar, get the point?

In martial arts that work for real, people sparred. People who win fights sparred a lot.

The truth is sparring is a little too hard for some people. It's easier to live in a martial arts fantasy world.

1- I haven't seen any racism at all on this board.
I've been here since the discussion board
started and have yet find any racism.. I
could be wrong.

2- the description of "four corners" made it
sound like a body mechanics drill...
not 'sparring' at all...
which probably had lots to do with Arbs
disappointment if that's what he thought
you consider sparring.

3- If Eric Tuttle demands you call him Sifu,
he's either a Chinese elitist, or if he's
not Chinese, he's a stupid elitist, in my
opinion.

4- If Eric's relationship with his students is "second to none" how the heck could someone
come into his school a 'handful of times' and only meet Eric once or twice... that sounds like
a teacher out of touch with his classes...
second to most. (I don't know anything about Tutle, I'm just pointing out your inconsistencies in your post).

5- I havent' been free sparring with my classmates
up to this point because I'm a working musician and damaging my ankles, knees, wrists, back or neck screws up what I do.... but you have taught me a much better reason... "I'm too deadly to spar"... wow, that DOES feel much more cool.

Meynard, I am not responding to your comments. They are neither intelligent nor informed; continue your training as you see fit, you seem to know what you're doing.

Water Dragon,

I understand your points and they apply very well to the styles of fighting that you describe. I commend you on your control of you body and skill, but again stress that it takes time to learn one's body, where power comes from and how to control it. I would not trust beginners (or even myself for that matter, i'm quite new to the art as it is) to safely execute many of the Xing-yi attacks at full contact speed. Xing-Yi has no punches and the throws are not like those in other arts. To understand the points I make requires a knowledge of the art I describe or it will obviously make no sense if you try to apply it to what you know. I will say again that sparring may be useful to you depending on what style you are training and what your goals are. To make my point any more clear would require you to see for yourself our Xing-Yi in action. You say you could not kill with a blow, but your art does not teach it. Shuai Chiao is a wrestling art and does not always intend to kill its opponent. What I am saying is that 6 harmony 10 animal Xing-Yi IS structured such that the INTENT of most movements is either lethal or severely damaging to the opponent when properly executed. Therefore, the practice of the art must be different from others, that's all. Xing-Yi is not a gentlemanly art, it is primal and violent. The tiger does not chase his prey and 'practice' to kill it (by killing it less ?) when the intent is to kill.

I'm off from my point about mr. 'arb', however and my intent was never to enter into a debate about sparring here. I think I have made my point and leave you with several options:

1 - believe at least some of what i have to say as it applies to 6 harmony Xing-Yi and be content

2 - accept that i don't know what I am talking about and leave me to suffer the consequences of my own ignorance.

3 - learn more about Xing Yi if you are interested and if at all possible seek out Sifu Tuttle and train with him for a short while and if you are not more convinced by then, I'll eat my hat. People cross the country here to train with this man, and not for no reason.

Once again, best wishes in all your efforts.
Train Hard!

Hi Justin, I'm opting out of this discussion but I'll leave with this comment. I made one or two Xing Yi specific references in my post above. (Well, not specific to Xing Yi, but a Xing Yi man would pick up on them.)They were written so that someone familiar with the methods would catch them. Someone unfamiliar would not. I have but the most basic exposure to the art, yet, you didn't even catch this basic level "inner gate" reference. Why is that?

I'll bet money that there are people on this board that could point out the reference, the training that affected this, and what ability the training fosters.

Yes, the five elements are not punches per se. Can you tell me what they are?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I'm just pointing out that there are some very basic things that appear to have been hidden from you.

Shane,

1 - the racism was simply referring to the sarcastic post about "black death" and african americans.

2 - yes, 4 corners is body mechanics and body hardening, that's all. No one ever said it was sparring and 'arb' didn't listen in class (if he was even there) when it was all explained.

3 - Eric doesn't demand we call him Sifu. Foo was simply a little ticked off at the lack of respect shown by 'arb' and (I think) what she said may have been a little 'coloured' by that fact. Eric is a very nice and gentle man and our classes are more informal than any club i've seen. We have no uniforms or belts and are not sticklers for regiment. We are all respectful of each other, however.

4 - During the school year (for the past 2 years) Eric has been teaching in british coloumbia at a chinese medical college. Students new this year only got to meet him briefly during a visit this december and so if "arb" came to class during the year he would not have even met Eric except possibly once or twice during his visit. This is why Foo objected to his calling himself Eric's student -> he never was eric's student. period.

5 - This deserves no response.

Water Dragon,

Our school is 6 Harmony 10 Animal Xing-Yi. It is not 5 element style and this is the root of the misunderstanding. The style is unique and different. You obviously don't know about the style and I have no reason to lie about it. I too am leaving this discussion as I have accomplished what I intended to. I was simply attempting to explain a position and shed some light on what we do. If it is simply going to be met with 'trickery' and antagonism, then I have better things to do. May you all be fruitful in your pursuits in the future.

Regards,
Justin

Sorry Justin, you are correct. I don't know anything about Xinyi Liuhe. I have a question for you. The references I made above were concerning the development of the Dan Tien as a physical entity and the ability to compress and rebound the spine as a means of power generation from the middle bell. I was under the impression that all Xing Yi practitioners use both the Dan Tien and the spine (among other vectors) to issue power. Would you be so kind as to describe how power is generated in your system? I'm a power generation freak and extremely interested in these concepts as taught in the various styles.

hey Justin, you can't respond to my post because I'm right.

It seems that you're an elitist xing yi practitioner, nothing more. You're typical and I've seen a dozen people like you. Stick to your fantasy and I'll stick to what works in the real world.

Justin D.

Just as I suspected... the 'racism' you cited was never racism at all.

As with all this blather about Arbs original post,
he never said anything negative about Tutle, never even implied anything negative... he simply stated he was "disappointed with the TIME allotted for sparring"-- and you reinforced his position with your ridiculous death fighting crap. Arb said nothing worth debating yet you've debated yourself into a lather. You Master-Debater you.

Justin,

1 - Have you ever been in street fights? If yes, have you been able to retain the "calm state of mind"?

2 - How do you develop and more important test this quality (if you think it's valuable, of course)?
Like was said in one book: "developing without testing is like driving without steering".

First off, thanks to Justin and Foo for describing their Four Corners drill. Actually, for those of you who are interested, there is film of Yu Hua Long doing the drill (or something like it) on the Six Harmony Ten Animal Hsing-Yi video produced by One Hand Video.

This is a very interesting topic, the sparring vs. too deadly to spar dichotomy. My students also get into this discussion with practitioners of other arts that believe they are too lethal to spar. I suppose their is no 'answer' short of no holds barred death matches, but it is important to look at the evidence we do have so that students can make an informed decision, especially students that want to prepare themselves for a real and violent confrontation.

I'll preface my comments by saying I have trained all different ways. I've studied traditional styles of martial arts in which all techniques were supposed to be potentially lethal, and which forbade sparring, as well as traditional arts which allowed contact sparring. I've also practiced several combat 'sports.'

One of the most, if not the most important aspect of success in a fight is mindset, next is experience, then physicality, finally specific technique. Without the will to fight, the greatest fighter in the world will lose to the most mediocre fighter. This is a common sense observation. It is extremely difficult (although probably not impossible) to develop a fighting mindset without some experience approximating a real fight. Like the boxers say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. If you have never been hit hard, crushed under someone's weight or been on the receiving end of a painful and unrelenting attack, how do you know how you will react? You may imagine you will respond appropriately and fight back, but you will never know for sure. Sparring will never be as intense as a real fight, but it is the closest approximation you will find within the bounds of relative safety (although you will be injured on occasion, it's an inevitability of learning to fight).

Getting hit, strangled and thrown hard by a determined and resisting opponent will condition your mind and body for the realities of a fight. Taking out your opponent with the initial attack is obviously the ultimate goal of a fight (and learning how to sucker punch is something I believe should be practiced often), but the reality is one punch knockouts almost never occur. When they do, the fighter doing the knocking out is usually always much bigger and stronger than his opponent. Despite the popular 'deadly martial arts' idea that a fight will be over in seconds with the opponent lying unconscious and broken on the floor, fights often go on for minutes, with both fighters injured as third parties pull the fighters apart.

Contact sparring and grappling are also a 'laboratory' for you to experiment with which techniques YOU can actually apply against a resisting opponent. Just because your teacher or classmates can smash bones with a blow doesn't mean you necessarily can. You will never know what you can really do unless you have really done it. You must also practice sparring in all ranges and situations (striking and wrestling both standing and on the ground).

It is not that the techniques in most martial arts won't work, all legitimate styles have potentially useful techniques. The problem is the method of training. Anyone can make a technique work against a non-resisting partner, and, of course, that is how techniques are learned. The actual execution of a technique is the easy part. The hard part is the set up and entry. The method of learning how to successfully set up and enter a technique for real cannot be learned without a non-cooperative, fully resisting partner. Because that is the situation you will be in in a real fight. In a real fight, your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop you from applying your techniques. If your method doesn't take this into account, it is not realistic. The best fighters in the world use relatively simple techniques, most often the same techniques they learned during their first few months of training. The reason they can actually apply these techniques is that they have learned to set them up against trained, resisting opponents. They have confidence because they have been successful for real.

Physicality is also extremely important in a fight. Size and strength do matter, and, especially if you are smaller than your opponent, superior endurance could save your life. Besides regular conditioning exercises for power and endurance, sparring practice will teach you how to conserve your energy and expend it when it will have the greatest effect. When the adrenaline is pumping, it is very important not to use up all your energy to no effect. Anyone who has ever been in a combat sporting event can tell you that whoever gasses first loses, no matter his or her level of skill.

Another place to look for answers is with men who have a great amount of experience in real fights (street fights). If you read the literature, men like Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson (who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the 'benefit' of hundreds of real fights) assert that contact sparring and grappling are absolutely essential to preparing martial artists for real fights. Geoff Thompson is especially interesting in that he has liscences to teach over a dozen Asian martial arts. But what he advocates practicing for real fighting ability is Western boxing (combat sport), wrestling (combat sport) and Judo (combat sport). The main focus of training in all three is non-cooperative free sparring.

In my own experience, I feel I developed more practical fighting ability from a year of Xing Yi Quan training in Taiwan (we sparred full contact on a regular basis) than years of training in other styles without non-cooperative sparring. Do I believe Xing Yi Quan is technically so superior to the other styles I studied? No, what made the difference was the method (we sparred).

Finally. I'll leave you with a real world example. Meynard is passionate about this subject because of his background in the martial arts. He spent years studying a 'traditional' martial art (with an excellent teacher) that did not allow sparring practice because of the 'deadly' nature of their techniques. When he first came to study with me we could basically strike, throw and submit him at will (sorry Meynard, the truth hurts sometimes). He has practiced very hard the last few years, and is now one of the best fighters in my school. He's done well in combat sporting events (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and submissions grappling) as well as a street fight he got into with a gang member a few months ago (two leg kicks and a Pi Quan knocked the guy down. He had had enough and Meynard let him get up and limp away. Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody).

I want to make it clear to my friends that posted above that I respect different methods of training. There is something to be learned from all drills, ancient and modern. What's important is to be honest about why you practice martial arts in the first place (for example, people who practice for health or recreationally don't need to spar) stay open minded and look at all different methods of training to see what works for you.

Tim,

Do you have any additional methods of "the fighting mindset" training in your school (apart
from regular sparring practice)?

Wow!! excellant responce as always Tim. My opinion is that many people don't spar as they are scared of it. And with good reason. I've seen too many schools that just throw their students into the mix and expect them to perform.

Would you be interested in taking this topic to beginning sparring? How do you get your people's feet wet, so to speak? My own school got me started by extremely light contact. By that, I mean we basically stood there and traded love taps to the face with each other. I was even instructed to not avoid shots at first, kills the flinch reflex.

Slowly, we turned up the heat, notch by notch. Within 6 months, they had "tricked" me into accepting high levels of contact with no apprehension.

I'd like to hear your (or anyone else's) method for dealing with this problem. I'm also using this method with my 5 year old and he responds well. In fact, contact boxing is his favorite part of training (with the exception of BJJ, which is just a game at this point) Any good ideas I can use for my son? Thanks