Hey Tim, if it is true that the main fighting strategy of XingYi is to move right into the opponenet and occupy his centerline while pressing him back with ferocious strikes, I wonder how it would work against someone who is 6 inches taller and 100 pound heavier? Would the "head-on" approach of HsingYi be effective against someone who is physcially larger and heavier than you? How would you deal with a big guy?
regards, Steve

Hi Steve,
First off, the main fighting strategy of Xing Yi Quan (at least as I learned it) is not to "move right into the opponent." The strategy of Xing Yi Quan is to obtain a superior angle, one at which you can apply your entire body force and at which the opponent cannot use the bulk of his mass or power. The confusion comes in, I think, because most of the techniques of Xing Yi advocate taking the smallest angle possible and then closing in. When you're good at it, it often appears to be a straightforward attack.

Anyone who is larger and heavier than you has more potential force than you do, so the strategy of obtaining a superior position becomes even more important. Assuming the smaller fighter is strong enough to apply his techniques in the first place, he needs to do so without contesting the larger fighter force against force. In order to beat anyone (with the exception of a total suprise attack, which I always advocate as the first choice in a real fight), you have to be superior in some area. If you are lighter and weaker, you have to be more agile and more sensitive, and you have to respect your opponent's force while keeping the single minded focus on putting him down.

How would I deal with a big guy? Assuming I couldn't get away I would most likely attack, attempt to injure or otherwise unbalance him then put him on the ground as quickly as possible. Of course, what anyone would do will depend on their own experience and level of particular skills, this is what has worked for me.

Sort of related . . .

Tim, do you have your students regularly mix it up with opponents of different sizes (once the student has reached a certain level of competence)? For example, in throwing practice, will you have them change partners regularly? It seems like this would be good training to expose people to a variety of different sizes/strengths of attacker.

Also, do you ever have students do multiple-attacker situations in practice? Maybe two or three guys working on one, or a line of successive attackers (like they do in more advanced judo).

Thanks for clarfying that up for me, Tim

Hi Tom,
All of my students train with all other students. So smaller and larger students train together regularly. This is true for technique as well as sparring practice.

We don't do alot of "multiple attacker" training in class, although I do place an emphasis on escaping from situations which involve more than one potential attacker, and on why some types of techniques are superior to others in a group situation.

In most cases, I don't believe one person can effectively 'fight' with multiple attackers in the way they can fight with a single attacker. And I'm talking about fighting more than one opponent at the same time, not several in a row (like you normally see demonstrated in "multiple attacker" demonstrations. Having opponents attack you one after another is not the same as having two guys actually attack you at once). We're into the hit and run type of strategy in these cases.

Makes sense. Thanks, Tim.

Just a few comments about the topic of "smaller agaist bigger".

I am a regular Xingyi practitioner. When I was in Beijing, I met a guy who was quite capable in Xingyi, Taichi, and Yiquan. When I asked him about how a Xingyi practitioner should fight, along with other comments, he told me three stories, two about himself and one about one of his co-practitioners:

1. He once was invited, or to be more accurate, challenged, by a san-soo (or free style)fighter who was in a training camp in Beijing preparing for national full contact competition. He refused to wear any protection including the glove and told the other man to wear whatever he liked. When the other guy approached, he knelt down on one leg and threw a punch on the other guy's lower abdomen. The other guy lost the ability to fight immediately;

2. There were some young gangsters in his town who didn't believe in his fame and visited his home. During the conversation, he told the three young men, "I can give you guys three chef knives, if you are truely men, then attack me from the front." For some reason, those young men didn't attack.

3. One of his Xingyi co-practitioners served in the Armed Police Force as a training officer. Years ago, a senior training director in Yugoslavian army visited China and watched the demonstrations of Chinese soldier's fighting training. The visitor wasn't impressed by the Chinese demo and said that western boxing was more effective. Being insulted, the Chinese officer, who was about 5'6" and 140 pounds, had a quick fight with the visitor, who was way taller and heavier(as commonly known, Yugoslavians are among the tallest people on average in the world). The fight ended quickly with the visitor's nose being broken. The Chinese officer jumped on the opponent and threw a palm on his nose.

I think we may learn something from these true stories.

1. A smaller person can effectively defeat his stronger rival by right timing and showing his fieceness. We all know that a small dog can fight a human being because the dog is more violent;
2. Willingness to fight is the key. I remember once Bruce Lee said that, when training, you must think that you are facing a much stronger attacker and you are in a dead-or-survive situation. When training with Xingyi, some teachers will tell students to think that they are the strongest in the universe and no one can stop him from attacking. But I prefer Bruce's way.
3. Effectively using fighting techniques requires talent. If one only knows how to fight in the way his master teaches, he'd better never fight. Moving upward and downward, and forward and backward require great flexibility of one's body.


Other comments are:
1. Stance training is very very important because only after doing it for months, one can feel the change inside his body. This cannot be achieved by other means.
2. Push-hands in Taichi is quite an effective way to improve sensetivity. Once I fought a thief on street in Shanghai. By the moment my hands touched his forearms, without thinking, my hands threw this guy on the ground five feet away from me. I was surprised by the power I possessed. However I don't think I can do the same thing to a Taichi trained person.
3. There are two ways of effective fighting, you can yield to your opponent and then attack, or, on a higher level, attack after he starts to show the sign of moving but before he starts to move and build his momemtum. In any case, using force against force is the most ineffective way.

whoa!

That last post gave me Mike Taylor flashbacks!

A long post, but cool stories.

I thought I would comment briefly here, from a "big"-ger guy perpective.

Just as an overview, I am 6'1", 230 lbs, could stand to lose a few pounds, broad shoulders. Not huge, but not small either. I have been studying Xing Yi for a few years now.

Gi, my closest Xing Yi brother is about 5'5", 140-150lbs, more energy than can be measured and no fat content.

He and I have studied close together for many years, he having a few years of training more than myself.

Understand that big or small, short or tall, skinny or fat, the purpose of Xing Yi (in my opinion is) you may be in a confrontation in your life. If you are, here is how you survive. It is not pretty to watch like Ba Qua or others. Xing Yi practioners also tend to be confident to the point of arrogent about their fighting power, but that is a generalization.

Now in answer to your question Steve, in my opinion, size does matter, but not in a pro or con manner, but rather situational.

Gi (who is also fond of Ba Qua), uses a mixture when we fight. He fights with monkey-like quickness. His shorter stature also allows him access to more targets on my body. He prefers "animal" styles of agility like Monkey, Snake, Dragon, Pao Quan

He also knows that more mass moved correctly can mean more power. He would not think to stand toe-to-toe per se when I am attacking, as I prefer linear (utilizing angles of near 45 deg.) attacks, with enough Ba Qua to change my footwork up a bit. I prefer the "animal" styles of more strength and root such as Horse, tiger, Pi Quan, Beng quan.

I have no doubt from the many times we have fought that his power would be enough to drop foes much larger than him. But he has also worked very hard to find and train what works for him, his body, and his mentality.

And of course, the Chinese are not known for girth and large size. Something must be right

Here is another story. Years ago when I was in Beijing, I met a guy from Inner Mongolia. He was a graduate student majoring something like engineering. He had been practicing some sort of internal martial art for many years. When pushing hands, I felt like pushing a tree. No matter how I tried, I couldn't shake his root.
At last he told me the secret. When pushed, he imagines the energy flowing from his back and down into the earth. Because people couldn't understand it, he ususlly just told people that it was his weight (200 pounds). I tried his way (you have to do it after your body has been tuned through stance training), and you know what? It works.

While I don't think I am as highly qualified to answer this question as well as some of you are heres a little bit of my belief on the subject.

When your sparring, you obviously don't want to hurt your fellow students and friends, Nor do they. But its invaluable practice to spar them and work on techniques. Some of them possibly might not work well during sparring. Your not out to hurt them.

In a real life self defense situation though; big, small, fat, or tall, you aren't going to hold back. That kick to the knee is going to destroy their knee, 200 pounds heavier or not. The shot to the solar plexus will knock the wind out of them, ect ect. But if you start taking hits from them chances are they are definately going to hurt, but thats your goal also.

Its just one of those questions that you can't really get an answer for without pitting a 150 pound xing yi guy against some random football player and seeing how things turn out. Which isn't going to happen realistically (too often at least).

Maybe im just blathering. But I am a big guy. Much larger than many in my class. But I am also pretty confident that those smaller than me in my class that are far more advanced...really CAN woop my ass if they "wanted" to. But sometimes when sparring my size can can be overpowering moreso because we both have to control ourselves to a great degree.

I am 5'5 and roughly 180lbs. but in good shape. I can tell you that I do not dodge away from the big guys, true I may seek a better angle as Tim mentioned. However, I have gone "toe to toe" with some big guys and oddly enough I found it is not size that is intimidating... sometimes it is your lack of size.

I have been told several times that because of my height, my build, and my willingness to mix it up and don't back down attitude, that I had to make them(big guys) think twice.

Afterall, they can not have a shorty whip their ass

One template for PSB training has been xing-i since much of its basics can be grasped in a short time.

Hi Stan,

What does "PSB" stand for?

Public Security Bureau.

Hi Tim,

You wrote: "...the main fighting strategy of Xing Yi Quan (at least as I learned it) is not to "move right into the opponent." The strategy of Xing Yi Quan is to obtain a superior angle, one at which you can apply your entire body force and at which the opponent cannot use the bulk of his mass or power."

When you put it like this Xingyi sounds just like Wing Chun After my first Wing Chun teacher moved, I tried to learn more about the art and find another teacher or a similar art. Several people suggested that I look into Xingyi as it had some similar principles and tactics and might be an even better fit for me since I was big. Wing Chun being the legendary girl art
Of course, I did read up on Xingyi and that is when I got seriously interested in the internal arts. Though I don't really think Wing Chun is better for the smaller and Xingyi for the bigger, it is interesting how these ideas continue to persist.

Richard
(the 6'2" 220lb playground for a 2yr old girl)

Hi Stan,

Thanks, I figured it was something like that just couldn't think of it.

If my only goal was to become the most competent real fighter in the shortest amount of time I think I would study Xingyi and Judo.

Richard,

I hope you're seeking help for your disturbing interest in toddlers.

Bob#2

Roberto Numero Dos,

How are you doing this fine morning? If you understood I was referring to my daughter and were simply joking try to find more appropriate subject matter for your humor. If you truly thought some form of disturbing interest in toddlers was implied by my comment, I think you are the one who needs help for thinking such thoughts.

Thanks,
Richard

Agreed that bOb2 neds help, Richard...

Although sometimes mildly amusing, his pedantic and tedious attempts at "humour" can also demonstrate immaturity and poor taste.

Richard,

I'm doing much better now. The humor might have been less worrisome had you included the fact the 2 year old is your daughter.

Several ladies in my neighborhood refer to me as the "300lb playground" (they demonstrate the meaning from time to time) Having only heard such adult levity applied to the term, I was a bit concerned reading your quip.

But, now... it's funny.

Bob#2

Bob #2,

Now we can all understand why you study the martial arts with such earnest. Having all those ladies after you much be quite scary.

Bob does not syudy with Ernest. he's in a different lineage.

Reading some of these stories and posts? I have to assume that most of these folks are in the Mork and Mindy lineage...

Whay not just say, Great Master X , fucked a goat, beat it to death with a stick and then ate it.

Instead of Frail Master X at 106 years old single handedly defeated half the German, English etc.. Armies during the Boxer Rebellion...

They were smoking opium and looting like everyone else and probably only fought amongst themselves. Such is the way of CMA.

I'm THE ORIGINAL BOB #3 YA BITCH! STOP STEALING MY STUFF!! btw, I'm funnier :P

"Once I fought a thief on street in Shanghai."

Just a comment: Please do not try to fight thiefs in China. The punishment for robbery is sometimes the same as for murder, and because some are very poor, they do not have so much to loose. Some people comes from the country, and kills other people just to get a few coins to get them back to their village. Donīt be an ass! - Give any thief or robber what they want ifin China. People is getting poorer and poorer because of unemployment and China is getting more and more expensive.

Hey! I am a very small guy! (maybe that explains my big mouth ) I find the arts of neijia very satisfying. I usually go extremely close into my opponent while I maintain/establish my root. I found that many people donīt like having me so close and they think I am very annoying. One of my teachers is smaller than me, and no one can get close to him. He will toss anybody away, no matter how big or heavy his opponents are! In Neijia, I often found that the small guys rules!

And while speaking of Xingyi, I find it very satisfying to uproot the opponent while blocking his attack. This kind of tactics can be used in all of the neijia, but I think, in Xingyi, this is truly one of the main characteristics.