after training a long time in hsing yi, I have seen a lot of teachers and students practice hours a day.
they practice hard and seriously but when they fight most of them do western boxing!
where is the hsing yi?
what is the difference between somebody using his style and the other just brawling?
what do you think?

I've noticed the same in all schools I've been to, but I've seen some practitioners actually use their art well (& at Thomas Martin's old Lama Kenpo school I noticed that many of his students were so well drilled that they responded as taught -- & it worked well for them in the streets of Long Beach, California Republic). I hear Tim can use his art well (I've never seen him brawl); & my Tai-Jitsu instructor also doesn't brawl (he uses the body mechanics of his art).
I THINK if a person is comfortable with his art (knows application under stress), then such will be less likely to brawl. But perhaps some people have a "sickness" referred to by some Chinese practitioners which causes them to use brute force over proper movement. Part of it may also be an ability to keep one's cool even when one is red-hot angry.

If you practice a martial art (any martial art), once you understand the basic strategies, and have internalized the relevant body mechanics and techniques, the determining factor on whether or not you will be able to use what you've learned in a real fight or not will primarily be determined by the amount of non-cooperative, contact sparring you have done. If you spar often against determined opponents in the most realistic manner possible (taking into account safety of the fighters), you will be more and more likely to be able to apply what you have learned for real. There needs, at least occasionally, to be some relatively high stress, adrenaline charged sparring sessions, with contact and in every range (striking and grappling, standing and on the ground).

Ahh, Tim's right again (still, as always -- so far),
Thomas Martin's Lama Kenpo students sparred in just about every class when the school was open (class being 4 or 5 days a week if my recollection is correct) -- and a fine bunch of scrappers they were (are)!
Mr. Martin would supervise each sparring match & give instructions/advice as necessary. Aggressive defense was the goal. Attitude & application of martial skills were both emphasized.
Mr. Martin is a Martial Arts Hall of Famer & ex-Marine (I mention this for Meynard's sake -- get well Meynard); an ex-special-forces type, Mr. Martin knows the value of practice under pressure.

if we train with non-cooperative opponent, like we do, isn't it silly to think we'll be fighting looking"hsing yi"?
i mean, when you defend your safety it's fair enough to survive, we do not care about look.

all this because too many people come train with us and say that we are not fair using stuff"not in the style"...they don't know our style!

fighting is about instinct rediscovered by training making us able to fight with no emotionnal involvement, just fighting!

and i think hsing yi can teach that !

Serge,
Having a Xing-Yi "look" -- or "flavor" -- is not too silly an idea (in my opinion). Certainly a western wrestler's "look" & a western boxer's "look" are different (much having to do with rules/intents); and note the many varied individual "looks" (personal styles) of western boxers: all variations on a theme, yet within the confines (principles) of the sport.
Now survival isn't a sport & there are many ways to skin a cat (that is, there are many ways to get the job of surviving done -- & this includes running away); but I've noticed that my body now responds to threatening situations in ways that it has been trained to respond without having to (consciously) think about it first. Occassionally an instructor of one style will question me as to why I moved as if in another style that I've cross-trained in (without cross-training I doubt that such situations would arise).
With this in mind, wouldn't it seem likely that one well trained in one system would respond with a "look" (in some variation at least) of that system, while one trained in a variety of ways might respond in a variation of one or more of the ways practiced (perhaps looking more hodge-podge) -- in both cases due to muscle memory coming into play under stress? I THINK (from my experiences) that this is likely.
For purposes of survival all's fair, so an ability to be (quickly) adaptable & innovative is a plus -- so perhaps it's best for such (strategic thought) to be incorporated into any system or group of systems studied. The development of the ability to use practically anything as a weapon or as a shield (or both) is a step in this direction. Is it not good Xing-yi if you "Beng" a ball-point pen (a knife, a pencil, a rolled up magazine, a book edge, a thumb, etc.) into a "solar-plexus" region or a throat -- & wouldn't one skilled in western boxing do the same using perhaps a "jab" or a "cross"?
I once read that "Variety is the spice of life." Accordingly, your own variations give you your own unique "flavor."

hi mike,

that's exacly what i try to say...we react with our instinct( thrust the hard stuff into soft skin)but with the education we receive...bong, jab...

but if we try to stick to the form, in fact as soon as we "try", we are done!

we just have to release the motion, helped by our training and detatch from the mental, judging mind...like meditation.
what do you think ?

Serge,
I THINK that the more ingrained a muscle-memory & basic (simple) strategies (& especially useful principles -- of which I'm still trying to discover & train), then the more likely that an appropriate response will resemble a portion of the drill/form from which it sprang.
TRYING TO FORCE a follow-up move merely because it appears next in a form is INAPPROPRIATE & therefore dangerous. But if the next move in a form happens to be appropriate, then using such will be readily available in muscle-memory & will aid in one's success: survival.
The BODY will respond well (SEEMINGLY WITHOUT THOUGHT -- & DEFINITELY WITHOUT CONTRIVING) -- if trained. If one's "mind chatter" begins to CONTRIVE (that is, to pre-plan the next move in the midst of the battle), then one is in immense & imminent danger of being incapable of any aggressive movement or timely defensive movement at that time (thus inviting disaster). If one's drills are too specific, then they rely on a specific stimulus & are therefore contrived -- & too many variations are possible to contrive for all contingencies; therefore general, non-specific movements & general, simple principles are best suited to be drilled into muscle-memory & core strategies (ready for that seemingly thoughtless yet appropriate reaction that will then occur once given an act of aggression to respond to). I once heard that a flower is smart enough to bend when there is a wind & smart enough not to bend when there is no wind. All is appropriate response to CURRENT situation without micro-managed pre-planning.
If UNTRAINED, then the body's response -- again seemingly without thought -- may include PANIC! There's FIGHT, there's FLIGHT, & then there's PANIC. Panic can get one killed quickly(I speak from experience)!
Bottom line: using a form isn't bad when appropriate (though there will probably never be a perfect situation in which one can use an entire form in sequence; chances are a move or a small portion of movements from a form, or even bits & pieces of multiple forms will be used in any given real-life fight); trying to force the use of a form is inappropriate action/reaction (& inappropriate actions/reactions are dangerous).

P.S.: Yes, we're pretty much saying the same thing (I'm just adding that forms have merit).

i am completly with you, mike, forms have merit!

we are saying the same thing.

serge

You two MUST have been separated at birth.

Sum Guye,
Yeah; but I got the raw end of the deal (like the Corsican brother who feels the pain of the other in lieu of same).

It seems that Xingyi has stood the test of time as a martial art. The art incorporates realistic, simultaneous offense and defense, against armed and unarmed opponents. The question is not if the art is effective, but rather if the practitioner can use it effectively. It would better for most people to practice and study Xingyi for 5 years or more before "cross-training" in other martial arts, or they will not really have a foundation in the art, and probably never will.
The bigger question is WHY learn Xingyi, or martial arts for that matter, at all? Many of the people posting messages seem to be preparing for a confrontation with a highly skilled fighter. This might occur if they plan to be involved in sport fighting, but is otherwise unlikely unless they are obnoxious (which none of you gentlemen are). The real challenges we face will be with ourselves, such as sickness and death, and following through on the projects in our lives.

Xingyi can help us build up our bodies, increase our fortitude and courage, and maintain us in our later years. I think that these are the primary reasons that we should be doing Xingyi. Unlike us, Xingyi has been around a long time and it is proven. We should have faith in it, and not waste our energy wondering how effective it is, or engaging in cross-training until we have accomplished something in it.

Scott W raises some good points. Personally, I think that too many "martial artists" spend too little time learning a style before they take up another one (cross train). I don't think it is unique to Xing Yi. If you are making progress in a system then that progress is proof that you need more practice. Surf the web and look at all the self proclaimed "Masters" who teach more than one style or system. When I see a guy who is teaching Tai Ji, Pa Kua, Xing Yi, Liu He Ba Fa, Aikido, Lohan Quan, Escrima, Kali, and Arnis...I don't think "Wow this guy must be good", my first thought is "Wow, this guy must suck in all of them". Just my opinion.

I've been reading Henry's posts for sometime. I've studied with Sifu Park. I know very well about his dragon back. I study with Tim for various reasons. None of which have anything negative to do with Sifu Park. But Henry, you're starting to insinuate that if someone teaches more than one art, then they must suck. It's an interesting comment, and one that gets attention because Park only teaches Bagua and publically states basically YOUR opinion, and yet you come on Tim's website (who teaches multiple disciplines) and state this. Curious...

I believe that much of this opinion of only abling to teach one art is Classic Oriential marketing. You might want to add the whole "you should be loyal to your Sifu and style" thing while your at it. It's funny how all the great Chinese teachers crosstrained. (Go read an old Bagua or Xing Yi journal)

If a style is based upon solid physical principles, these principles will transend the given flavor that another art offers.

If you have the principles and mastered them physically (I guess that constitutes having mastered them) then learning other flavors of arts is easy -
Hence Tim's Shen Wu program...

good training,
Macaco fino

I'm highly insulted!!! Scott; you said I'm not
obnoxious and then dared refer to me as a 'gentleman', friggin' trouble maker.

Henry, it seems to me you're at a cross road.
Stick with your 'first thought' or dig deep for a second thought and learn something valuable.

Just a few hours ago I was in Tim's school during 'open mat' where many students of other teachers, other schools and various styles came by and tested their skills against Tim. All of whom, myself included, leave sweaty, shaky and marveling at his superior ability... which he didn't develop by wearing blinders while immersed in one style.

Keep squeezing, I'm sure a second thought will
plop out sooner or later.

Enjoy developing your own limit.
Sum Guye

actually, on second thought (see),
I too tend to be suspicious of someone who claims to teach multiple styles. But I do have proof that there are some who have the ability to learn/teach many styles well if they have the intelligence and stick-to-it-ivness required.

In general, I know that cross training is beneficial to serious martial artists, gymnists, musicians and every one else.

Personally, if I was learning any art with the end goal of 'teaching' or 'sport fighting' I would approach it differently. I'm having a blast, getting better and stronger... that's all I need.


Ask Park to tell you about "Bob #2"
(but be ready to protect yourself.)

I am surprised by the sensitivity to what Henry said. In the case of Tim, he studied for several years in an art before moving on to another one. As far as I can see, he teaches Bagua, Xingyi and Tai Chi, not 8 or 9 unrelated styles per Henry's example. Tim may have studied many more styles, but does not claim to teach those styles.

One major problem with learning the martial arts is that there are so many of them, that many people spend their time drifting from one to another without getting a solid grounding in one of them. It is better to focus on one martial art at a time (while practising your other styles to maintain them) for at least 5 years each. Sun Lu Tang is often used as an example of a cross-training martial artist (Shaolin, Xingyi, Bagua and Tai Chi primarily), but he learned them one at a time, putting in at least a few years at one art before moving on to the next. Of course, he did this on a full-time basis, and we don't have so much time these days. He studied for over 60 years as well.

Sum Guye, I like what you said about your reasons for practicing the martial arts. I think you will be involved in the martial arts for your entire life with that attitude.

And I won't call Sum Guye a gentleman anymore!

I seem to have hit upon a nerve. I stand by my statement. I was not thinking of Tim when I gave my opinion. I think some of you guys are a little hypersensitive. I won't post anymore, i prefer to practice anyway. Best Regards to all.

"I won't post anymore, i prefer to practice anyway. Best Regards to all."

That's too bad. Even though I might be a little 'too sensitive' to your posts, you do raise good dialogue.

Don't quit because someone doesn't like what you say. This is a discussion board, it should raise issues that make you think about your original position. No offense, but to publically just quit like this and then state "well, I prefer to practice anyway" only gives the impression that you are taking a 'I'm better than you' attitude. If you really believe this, why did you post in the first place? Was it to hear different opinions or was it to show others that you are a real good martial artist in the know?

I don't state this to cause trouble, but if you want other opinion's post or give yours. There are some pretty interesting characters that I don't necessarily like that give their opinions on this board, but after I weed through the 'shock' they often do have very valid points.

Sometimes, growing is very painful.

good training,
Macaco fino

Gentlemen,

Great dialouge, no one should stop posting.

good Luck.