• Archive through November 15, 2003 November 15 - 05:31 pm [20]

Adrian,

The body mechanics of the embracing the tree zhuang that we practice have their purpose.

In this zhuang we are looking first to create a circle. Since the fingers of the hands are stretched out and apart the center has to be the middle finger. Therefore the middle finger which represents a continuation of the arm and should be at the level of the elbow which should be at the level of the shoulder joint. Therefore the thumb and index finger are slightly higher than the arm and the ring and pinky finger are slightly lower.

This zhuang is the first one taught by sifu becuase it is the easiest one to realize opposite force, the resistive force and also jong lik or the equal force on all sides of the abstract center of the circle created by the hands, arms and back. The circle is also supposed to expand and contract, stretching and relaxing all of its points in equal distance from the abstract center. With the above elements at different heights the stretch is not as structurally sound, making the stretching of the tendons less effective.

The expansion and contraction of the circle is what Wang Xiang Zhai called round force. Explosion in all directions like a bomb. He stated that this is the correct method as opposed to simple linear force.

This is a traditional method for practicing zhan zhuang as it exercises and allows the performer to learn and feel many of the principles contained withing not only yiquan but the other internal systems as well.

"The expansion and contraction of the circle is what Wang Xiang Zhai called round force. Explosion in all directions like a bomb. He stated that this is the correct method as opposed to simple linear force. "

You keep repeating this, and yes, is true, but is not what i am talking about with you. You are speaking of chengbao zhuang, and as with all zhan zhuang postures, a posture is correct not based upon simply physical appearance of a posture but due to correct body mechanics of that posture. eg. Wang Xiangzhai used often say to seek not resemblence of form but fullness of spirit. This is of course true with chengbao zhuang also, and when you understand this (in your body, not only in your head or in your mouth) then your zhan zhuang practice can go from the shallow to the profound.

Now, yes i know how arms are positioned in this postures, and yes where the hands are. What I am saying is that from your posts above you come across to have idea that the ELBOWS are also at this same level, which they are NOT. Please look at any established Yiquan teacher (is perhaps best seen from side-on angle) and you will see that the hands, yes, are at shoulder level (sometimes slightly above), but the elbows are not.
However, you claim to find chengbao zhuang not so practical, because, you say is not so practical to attack with elbows at shoulder level........but they are NOT at shoulder level. So please in reply, address this point, rather than talking more on some other aspect of zhan zhuang which not what I ask to you about.

Regards

Adrian

Adrian,

I've explained why what I said is correct.

I do not mean that the tops of the elbows are even with the tops of the shoulders. I'm speaking of a circle made with the arms and back. The center of this circle is paralell to the ground and even with the shoulder joints.

If you do it differently then that is alright too. Or if you care to reason why the center line of the circle created by the position of the arms I've described is wrong I'll be more than happy to listen. I just find it useless to argue about semantics.

John

"I guess it's a matter of preferences. I would prefer to attack someone or defend myself with elbows a bit lower than shoulder level. "


"I do not mean that the tops of the elbows are even with the tops of the shoulders."

But was this not indicated in the first quote??? If not, then why do make that statement (when we are talking about chengbao zhuang).
Like i said in one of prior posts, if I misinterpret your intention here, then do excuse me, but I simply reply to what it seem to me you mean.

Adrian

I apologize for not being more clear Adrian.

Now that we are on the same page..

The yiquan I study comes down from Zhang Chang Xing, the Han brothers and Liang Zhi Pong.

Does your path of study come from any of these 2nd generation masters?

No I have not studied with people you have mentioned above.
I am student of Cui Ruibin (student of Yao Zongxun) and have also studied with Yang Shaogeng (student of Wang Xiangzhai).

You are very lucky to have been able to study with both a third and second generation master.


Did you find that their courses of training differ very much?

I've seen some major differences in the training between teachers I've had here in the US.

I don't know about everybody else but I got a little choked-up watching this little relationship blossom.

Bob#2

Isn't it just terrible.

Two people from differnt sides of the planet training in the same discipline being able to solve a difference by engaging in conversation instead of ripping each other apart.

Who's yiquan training methods do you follow Bob?

Well, to be honest I have found that teachers I study with in China (Cui Ruibin and Yang Shaogeng) have had some differences to others in West (i used to study with Lam Kam Chuen (student of Yu Yongnian) beforehand).
I think each teacher teach slightly differently and is no fixed way that is best. However one thing that I have noticed is to do with how a student starting to study Yiquan is taught zhan zhuang.
Now, there are some teachers who teach you to stand in one posture at a time (eg. in an 60/70 minutes of zhan zhuang you hold only one posture). There are also many teachers who teach to hold several positions throughout that overall time.
I think that there are many people here who practise zhan zhuang no? So i would like to hear what people have to say on this. ie. which they do, and importantly, why.


Regards,

Adrian

jmedurga,

I follow the Yi Quan training methods of those grand masters who've gone before me and bothered to sell instructional videos.

Jumedurga- I'm curious- was your mother sneezing when she named you?

The first teacher who introduced standing to me had me do only one posture. In the beginning he had me do it for at least 20 minutes and I worked up to 1 1/2 hours eventually.

My second yiquan sifu, the student of Zhang Chang Xin introduced zhan zhuang later in traing.

The third teacher I studied with recommended that 10 minutes in a posture was enough. He claims to have studied with Zhao Dao Xin.

My current yiquan teacher recommends that one should be able to hold any health stance posture for one hour. In class we usually begin with 70 to 90 minutes of standing and he adjusts us to the next posture when he feels like it.

Sometimes we do 9 postures and sometimes it's one. He states that there is no set in stone method. As long as we practice correctly that is what is important. Personally I like to have more of a definite "course syllabus".

I did only 2 or 3 different postures for about 8 years before learning the 8 or 9 standard health stances and then fighting stances.

From my own experience I think standing in on or just a few postures for longer periods is better. Three or four in a session for at least an hour.

For fighting postures such as hun yuan or san ti I was told that 1/2 hr on each side is good.

But then they all say that it's the quality not the quantity that matters.

I am curious about those who claim to stand for long periods of time on a daily basis as part of their martial training and who claim that they have found it beneficial -- in what way?

I have practised a variety of standing qigong methods over the years but for never more than 40 minutes at a time, per day, and found such training to be useful in certain ways and harmful in others. I still practise a couple of methods of standing but for only 10-15 minutes at a time. This seems to me to be more reasonable and it is still beyond the interest and capabilities of most modern students of taiji.

I have also found that, of the teachers that I experienced, those who talked the most about standing for long periods of time were those who seemed to have the worst health and rarely if ever did anything martial in class -- even in terms of demonstrating on senior students.

Conversely, those who were the best at the martial side of what they taught either did standing in moderation as a supplement to their other training or did no standing practise of anykind. Granted my experiences are limited (a dozen teachers -- good and bad -- over three decades) but I would imagine that most of you are in the same boat, if not less experienced.

And, believe it or not, I am not trying to be inflammatory by pointing out that standing obsessivley in fixed stances and staring off into space are clinical symptoms of certain kinds of profound psychiatric disorders...

I agree with this.
When I study with Mr Cui is 70 mins in one posture, twice a day. I personally find this better than doing many different postures for only 5/10 minutes (at least for now).

When i asked my teacher about how some teach it like this, others like that, he likened it to school. First you start at primary school, then you have secondary school, then university etc... In primary school, you study one posture a time for longer period. Later on, when in university for example, then changing posture more frequently is ok (when you at quite high level).

Wang Xiangzhai also refers to this in his writing, "Generally, one should not make many changes of posture during practice, since once the body and mind are still and relaxed the blood flow speeds up. To suddenly change posture when internal movements and changes are just getting going will disrupt such developments... However, once one fully appreciates the workings of internal movement, the any manner of external change can be made without affecting such movement. One can change as one wishes without the contraints of posture."

I ask about this topic, because I aware that many people learn not like this and stand for periods such as 40 mins (approximately), in this time holding several different postures. I also think maybe there are here some people who study this way, in which case, i hope they will contribute to the conversation on how they practise, and their opinions of why they do like so.

Regards,

Adrian

ps.
"Jumedurga- I'm curious- was your mother sneezing when she named you?"

bob2 - do you mind me asking, why do you write this exactly?

jmedurga

J for John,

Medurga is my surname.

I think that standing in one posture for a long time serves to give the best results as far as developing one's frame (hsing). And also for developing what some call mo jin.

Changing the postures after only a few minutes is for training different things. All of the different health postures have their own visualizatiions, slight movements and purposes.

The positioning of the hands in the postures also affects the energy in one's body. For example, the higher the hands are held in the posture the more difficult it is to sink one's qi,intention or whatever else you'd like to call it.

Once one can feel as though he is standing in water or some thick substance then the trick is to be able to keep this feeling while in transition from one posture to another. And also to adjust the body to keep the abstract center.

Different systems have there own methods for developing the qualities that zhan zhuang is used for in yiquan. For example the stretching, and twisting of the limbs and joints stretches and strengthens the tendons. Some systems do the yi jin ching exercises to achieve this.

My teacher used zhanzhuang to inject more balance and rooting into taijiquan practice. To build 'jing' (stability, alertness) and to make the form more alive and vibrant.
After one 1 wk of zhanzhuang, people starting dropping out of class wanting only to learn form only. Teacher dropped the zhanzhuang and everyone was happy. More people shoed up for class. I and 2 others showed up about 2 hors early to do zhuang. There were about 8 postures in the sequence but since they overlap I ended up teaching 4 as max.

Hay ainu you start with "My Teacher...." and ended with "but since they overlap I ended up teaching 4 as max".... bawahahahaha !!!

If your gonna talk about yourself as as someone else try to keep it consistent dude !!!!

When students started dropping out you could have tried writing a note to yourself or even yourselfs... have you or even the both of you watched the Guy Ritchie movie Revolver???

Your right though... Zhuangzhuang is hard when done for long time say half hour minimum.

Andre

Would it help to know that when practicing zhan zhuang the object of the exercise is to engage certain groups of muscles in quite precise ways in order to develop whole body power? This is not easy for the new person and requires a lot of concentration. So it seems from the outside that the standing exercises are achieving nothing, since there is no obvious movement. But actually there is a lot going on. Muscles are engaged just to the point where if more effort was used actual movement would take place, and this happens later in shi li training. But for beginners the important aspect is to find and energise the right muscles in the right combination to a point just short of movement occuring.

This is special form of isometric training. To understand this you could try the following simple thing. Put a cup of tea or coffee on a table and then go to lift the cup, but apply just enough force such that if you tried any harder you would actually lift the cup. If the cup is really full up then try this exercise and concentrate on keeping the liquid in the cup perfectly still. This requires concentration, precise muscular control and the ability to relax while tense and the opposite. This is the begining of yiquan.

FB,

There are many things I was taught that appeared absurd but as I went through practice, I found that many useful. Much was repetitious but in conjunction with, at least my present techer I left stuff out that did not make sense to me or I was too stupid to understand. Despite that, I still initially teach the said form/posture but tell my students how and why I made the change and tell tell them they will even make changes on their own. That is how all my teachers approached things instead of swalling all the BS that is repeated and even I may not have a clue sometimes, I will admit.
You amy even try that scenario yourself, if you already haven't.

necromonger

What Yiquan will make you move like a necromonger?

No.
I am a Pacifist with a big belly and a bald head and my semper fi days are over.