• Archive through September 20, 2002 September 20 - 12:25 pm [20]

• Archive through September 24, 2002 September 24 - 10:05 pm [20]

I do not understand why there is such a huge fat bias in our culture.

Just check out this great dancer/athlete.

http://www.download2me.com/pictures/fat%20ballet.htm

I do not understand why they let her dance topless.

Mike, when I trained in Taijutsu, we trained in quite a few groundfighting techniques. It is just that Taijutsu is kinda "jack of all trades" system and does not stress one thing over the other, leaving that up to the individual. Its training can be so open-ended that perhaps your drills followed your instructor's preferences or aptitudes (though we used to purposely stress "weak point" training). I've noticed some radical differences between one instructor's taijutsu and another, much like the differences, I imagine, between one Hsing-Yi master and another. I also notice several "ninja masters" on websites that we used to roll our eyes at when we saw them at a seminar (lol). But, I digress........

Hey Mike,

Why don't you start by showing up to open mat. It won't cost you a cent.

As far me paying for you to go to class...

I'd rather get cable T.V. and find out what's so good about the Sopranos.

I felt badly the last time we grappled because I thought that I was being too mean. Now I know that you deserved getting choked out.

Kenneth,

You're right. I surfed the net last night & discovered some Tai-Jitsu classes doing mat work. I've been told that ju-jitsu-like instruction is also among Bujinkan's traditions.

I knew that my main instructor could fight on the ground, when on occassion he ended up there with a resisting student; but he never chose to instruct us in it other than to show some simple distraction methods (which when they work, then all's well; but if they fail, then the opponent just gets annoyed & more angry). My other instructor showed me a very simple, specialized trick that -- for safety purposes -- can't be applied correctly in training should the opportunity for using it arise. But again, such are just tricks of distraction/disorientation; they're not nuts-&-bolts how to get yourself out of a bad situation.

I've had two Tai-Jitsu instrutors; one I left after only a few months training, & the other I stayed with on-&-off for several years until he retired from teaching. This second instructor -- my main instructor -- had studied in Japan where he received his Black Belt in Ninpo Tai-Jitsu. He taught his curriculum in a one-year cycle. Two or three times I failed to complete the cycle (& my work schedule kept me from going to half of the classes anyway); later he modified his curriculum (still a year's cycle but only one class a week instead of two) & I got thru about 9 or 10 months straight instruction before he ended the cycle early by retiring). It's possible that I missed groundwork training this way (either thru my missing classes, or by his narrowing the curriculum).

I just remember being choked & pummeled whenever I was bottom man on the ground (but never choked out as I know to TAP OUT when I'm defeated in practice; but I did come close once) -- as our training involved taking people to the ground & hurting them from above (never escaping from below; only the instructor did this from time-to-time; but he didn't teach it to me & I never saw even his best students use such when taken down). Bottom line: I feel myself unfortunate & lacking in ground-fighting defense; but I consider myself fortunate for having been placed in dangerous situations on the ground (I'll explain this later).

Meynard,

"Ha, ha?" Well, it was worth a try. And yes I know "open-mat" time is FREE; but I also know that a slow learner like myself trying to learn the basics with a bunch of trained BJJ & Sambo types during open-mat is akin to one who is a slow learner walking up to a professional boxer (without having had any boxing training himself), asking the boxer to show the basic "cover-up" & "jab," so that he might learn it, then immediately after this the boxer strikes him with refined jabs, hooks, crosses, & uppercuts while using a refined strategy -- and this "student" (a.k.a.: punching bag, raw meat, "sucker" is still trying to understand & develop his concept of basic defense & jab!

And I believe it was you specifically who used a technique from another school on me that I was impressed with & wished to learn. Tim told you (if it was you -- it was certainly someone who looked a lot like you) to be careful with my knee when demonstrating the technique (as one's knee can be hurt before one has an opportunity to tap out). Instead "you" went too far -- twice (& blew-out my right knee which had just taken ten years to heal from my military days)! Apparently "you" were either too inexperienced to hold back, or "you" just like testing the results of what you know on people who trust you to teach them in open-mat (again, if it was you -- my memory isn't that great).

All Others,

I once posted that I've never seen an injury (or serious injury) at a Shen-Wu class. Note that "open-mat" isn't a class; rather, it's free time to practice using the Academy's equipment (er, mats).

Being put into dangerous positions on the ground -- in practice -- is essential (in my opinion) to understand how you might react under certain circumstances in a real fight. For instance, I know well to "tap out" when either I know that I've been defeated or when I know that I'm about to be injured; yet, once while on my back I had a hand grab my windpipe & for awhile I forgot to "tap" -- I was in a panic, holding onto the offending hand, & choking. It was a very valuable lesson for me; for if I couldn't think to tap, then I wouldn't think to apply any counters I may learn in the future -- unless I could re-wire my thinking process not to panic under such an unpleasant circumstance. I did so. YET ANOTHER ASPECT WHY GROUNDWORK TRAINING IS IMPORTANT.

uummm...I don't hurt anybody in training.

The last time we grappled was about 3 years ago when Tim was still teaching in the garage. I was green then and I remember you trying muscle your way into everything. I remember taking it easy on you and yet you still tried to crush my trachea. (Mike outweighs me by 60 to 70 lbs and I believe he is over 6 feet tall) Anyway, you were aggressive because you thought you could just over power a little guy. You just pissed me off. In the next round I gave you a taste of how aggressive I could be and choked you into submission within 30 seconds. You never grappled after that.

I don't attack peoples knees especially if they've had injuries. I certainly don't go too far, let alone do it twice.

I have never injured anyone. Maybe if you show up I'll start with you.

Meynard,

Maybe it was just someone that looked like you then, eh? As for muscling: yes; I had (& still for the most part have) no understanding of groundwork application -- so until I learn this I'll have no choice but to try to muscle, or just give up (as I haven't yet figured how to apply the principles while on the ground & I have little feel for groundwork since I've not had enough ground instruction or mat-time). You on the other hand already had some previous ground practice, so I was like butter in your hands (so to speak -- even with 30-to-60 pounds more weight). And yes, I was leaning my forearm on your throat (because that's all I had been taught up to that point -- Tim taught me that; but I hadn't learned anything past that yet -- again, it's like the "guy with the idea of the jab just put into his head before the skilled boxer pummels him" analogy I offered above).

The reason I didn't return wasn't because of your having me tap out quick (as that's incentive for me to study, not to quit -- I started Tai-Jitsu training after a similar thing happened to me with a Tai-Jitsu practitioner), but rather, because a truck hit me right afterwards. And between the blown right knee, a serious limp in my left leg, a crumpled bicycle, & little or no cash flow (as I hadn't started my new job yet), It wasn't a hard decision for me to lay off open-mat time for awhile.

I'm glad to hear that you would not intentionally hurt anyone in practice, but your last remark above tells me you're either a cocky little hot-head (skilled or not -- attitude is attitude) &/or you're still trying to get me on the mat before I have a chance to learn anything. No thanks. Not yet. Be patient & show a good attitude & maybe I'll let you show me some stuff later. Take care.

Why should I show you anything? Don't be stupid. I don't owe you $hit.

Right now I just want to kick you a$$ for basically calling me liar and doing something I don't do. So F*^% you Mike. I don't appreciate being accuse of hurting anyone.

Repeat...

Folks,
I'll try to tie in something to do with the topic of groundfighting at the end of this post; but overall, this posting is for my buddy Meynard who has gone astray; so...

Meynard,

I've succeeded in annoying you! You're too high strung. Perhaps, if it was you who cranked my knee, twice, then you didn't notice (after all, when one shows temper such as you've shown in your above posting, one isn't always aware of what's happening around him -- & your writting alludes to this possibility). So, take a chill pill & read what's posted before you rant. I didn't write with absolute certainty that it was you who blew out my knee. I said I believe it was you or someone that looked a lot like you. I never called you a liar before -- but now that you're so miffed I'll call you one. LIAR!

And this doesn't have anything to do with what happened to me at open-mat many moons ago. I'm calling you a liar over an earlier post. Before I just made light of it; but now you need a lesson; and if you want to kick my ass then you'll just have to wait 'til I own one (and with the cost of hay & stable fees, that'll be a very long time -- besides I have no great love of jackasses; hey, isn't that the Army's mascot? I forget if it's a jackass or something that just looks like a jackass). Well, here goes:

I take it you wrote (roughly):
"What annoys me about Mike is his long-winded posts. The truth is I don't read Mike's post[s] because he doesn't really train in Xing Yi or Ba Gua. He just has a lot to say. I'm really not sure where he thinks he gets his credibility from. I trained with Mike and overall [he's] a good guy, but he is an over-weight, out-of-shape, middle-aged guy that I haven't seen in a Xing Yi or Ba Gua class in almost 2 years. He likes Shen Wu and admires Tim, but never goes to class. My advise to Mike is to train more and give less advise about classes or arts that he doesn't really attend or train in."

Lie #1: "The truth is I don't read Mike's post[s]..." -- obviously a lie on its face...wait, maybe it's TRUE; perhaps if you really read my posts you wouldn't be so easily offended (but you'd still be annoyed, hee, hee, hee).

Lie #2: "...[(Mike -- that's me folks)doesn't really train in Xing Yi or Ba Gua [("...arts that he doesn't really attend or train in"]." -- not so obvious; but Meynard, with this statement you claim knowledge you don't have (at best it's fraud); it's true that I haven't been to the Shen Wu Academy for approximately 12-13 months now & that you haven't seen me there for perhaps two years (because we don't all meet at the same time); you just couldn't get there before I had to take the bus home -- sorry, pal; it's also true (though you don't state it) that I took about one year off of all MA training except in one specific area.

Lie #3: "...overall [Mike's] a good guy..." -- apparently not, since you want to kick my "a$$" (& I'm poor; I don't have much $, let alone $$)! Really I think it goes back to that reading thing I wrote about above.

Lie #4: "...[Mike] is an over-weight, out-of-shape..." -- the key word here is "is;" if you haven't seen me in class "in almost 2 years," then one might ask, have you seen Mike at all (anywhere -- besides the funny papers) in the past two years? And if the answer is "No," then just how can you make a claim (it's that fraud thing again, Meynard) that presently I am this & that (because that's what "is" implies: current status; the past is expressed better as "was"; I was recovering from accidents & a major illness, & I've had an accident since (accidents & sickness: my reason for allowing myself to get out of shape in the 1st place); but if you haven't seen me in about two years, then you just don't know how much I weigh now & you couldn't even have a clue as to what shape I'm currently in. Talk about credibility!

Four lies in one short posting? Come on, Meynard. I've noticed that you post a lot of antagonistic responses on the discussion board (& with the exception of my teasing you, I think I've done it a couple of times myself -- & I'm not particularly proud of it as it shows a lack of forethought in writing &/or a flaw in my character that needs correcting). I could point out more things that are less than desireable, but it shouldn't be necessary; so I'll stop here.

Oh, if it makes you feel better, I'VE LIED ALSO. Once in class, Tim asked if I was trying to apply a pressure point technique on his calf muscle; I was embarrassed & I lied, saying "No." Of course I was, but I couldn't pull it off. Sorry, Tim (now Tim will want to kick my poor ass if ever I should be able to afford one).

OK Folks,

Most of the above was because I worded a posting which made Meynard seem like a sinister guy & fact of the matter is that I don't remember who it was -- it was just some guy who looked a lot like Meynard (occassionally new faces come & go during open-mat sessions); I've been in classes with Meynard since & I wouldn't have done so if I absolutely rembered it to be him (& note that I've been in soooo many accidents that my thinking gets occassionally scrambled -- my trying to tie in "groundwork" in this Xing-Yi Traditions section is an example...I just now re-realized what section I'm in...sorry).

I don't need someone to tell me whether or not I'm credible or incredible; I write what I recall -- & I do make mistakes; so this is the Xing-Yi section, eh? Well, Pi on me! I need some rest...bye (sorry for wasting your time this time around).

Gee, if they are all auto accidents, maybe you should start taking the bus, ! But seriously, folks........from what I have seen of competitive sparring, it develops more bad habits than good (unrealistic response; you react as you train right?). This is probably why the old masters who developed their arts in times of real war or civil strife preached against it. Yet, one needs hands on training with a resisting partner to spontaneously and creatively apply his technique. What we do and what I have seen in the less watered-down systems (few and far between, I know) is to basically fight anything goes, and quite simply taking care not to hurt your partner. We use minimal protective gear, often none. Yes, accidents happen, but that is life, besides, you don't learn to get hit with gloves on. But it is necessary to respect your training partner in this sort of approach. After that, the only thing left to do is to fight for real. Remember, Helio Gracie further developed his art through starting street brawls (not that I'm advocating such, just that if you wanna be a fighter, you gotta fight, and jumping around in a ring wearing pads don't cut it). I would strongly recommend that Mike and Meynard not train together, as they seem to lack the mutual respect required for preventing injuries in the kwoon, especially if they desire to engage in intense, highly realistic exchanges (wow, I almost sound like an attorney!). There is the "real combat" option open, of course, but really guys, is there anything going on here worth seriously hurting someone over? Experience wise, I think surviving a riot in a biker bar or something would be much more meaningful. Besides, if there were some sort of societal breakdown, you two would probably find yourself on the same side, as there are countless scumbags in this world far more worthy of your scorn than each other.

I'm soooooo glad we're not all trapped in an elevator together.

Kenneth,

Meynard & I always banter back & forth, 'though Meynard's style is often a far less subtle approach. He's actually doing me a favor with his postings. He's motivating me (last time he did this he motivated me right back into class; but this time I'm too poor to respond this way). I have respect for him; I'm just poking fun at him...because that's the nature of our relationship (like above when I point out his "lies" instead of pointing out the truth in his words -- which is just plain fun; and reading his responses are also fun; I would have continued, but I needed a nap -- I've got lots more banter left in me); I wouldn't continue to write him the way I do if I didn't respect the little hot-head (that's for Meynard in case he's reading; I don't want to inflate his ego & make him a big hot-head). Now, on to business...

Were the "old masters" referred to above speaking out against competitive sparring, or against duelling, picking unnecessary fights, etc.? I realize you're referring specifically to Chinese Internal Martial Arts, but, nevertheless, old-time Okinawan martial arts instructors used to put on armor/protective-gear & spar in order to practice. One can practice striking & even gouging at eyes safely with a fencing mask on. Often such fencing masks had a throat protector making that fair game too. One didn't necessarily have to try & break thru the armor (as many westerners assumed was the point of such practice); it's somewhat great practice for learning to strike at a lively target while maintaining your own defense (the only major drawback at first is the loss of full vision as screens hinder vision; it just takes some initial getting used to).

Also, Tim studied in China & Taiwan with the inheritors (so-to-speak) of such old masters, & they sparred. Sparring is a way to familiarize oneself with the dynamics that one would probably face in a fight-for-life without being nearly as dangerous. I've got another example, but please forgive me as it isn't Chinese IMA:

A famous swordsman from Japan, named Musashi (sp?) wrote at age 60 that he trained every day, he fought in as many as 60 duels in his younger days, and that he trained students in the strategies of swordsmanship. How could he have reasonably taught & tested a student if he didn't allow some sparring?

My point is that people are people & therefore (as a rule of thumb) what's a good practice is a good practice regardless of nationality. If Okinawan masters sparred, & Japanese masters sparred, then did not Chinese masters spar? It's possible for one to train without sparring, but one may be shocked the first time he or she gets struck, tossed around, or say held by the throat -- and one wouldn't even have a chance to learn (real-time/fast-action) timing & distancing, body reactions, etc. until attacked (as for me, I prefer advanced instruction & practice; that's why I'm drawn to martial arts; I don't particularly enjoy getting my bell rung & whatnot, but I'd rather learn of weaknesses in my defense & have a chance to correct such around friendly people, than to find out at the hand of a tyrant who truly wishes me harm).

Well hopefully I'm on task this time & I'm long-winded enough to further annoy Meynard. I probably won't post quite as much for awhile as I'll be in training to see if I can last, say, 60 seconds on the mat with Meynard next time around (as he really did have me tapping-out super-quick the last time; & I know the longer I take doing something the more annoyed he gets...& therein lies my motivation).

Bob #2,
You may be on to something: fights in a ring, cage fights, hmmm...elevator fighting -- pay-per-view & no room for a ref. It could give new meaning to going down for the count, eh? Hey, maybe even start in the middle & have each contestant competing to get to their goal level (you win a toss -- literally -- you then press the button)...well, I digress as it's not a rotten old Xing-Yi tradition (yet).

This might be a matter of expansion and contraction.

A little less typing,actually a LOT less typing,and a lot more working,and the ol waistline may shrink,the ol pocketbook may expand,thereby eliminating the compulsive and constant need to remind of one's dire financial straights.

"CHOP WOOD,CARRY WATER"...and quit spending so much time...

Mike Taylor,

1. A long time ago I read your post completely, but now everytime I see a Mike Taylor post I start to think "long winded" non-sense.

2. You don't really train in Xing Yi or Ba Gua! When was the last time you were in a class?

3. Okay, fine, you're not a good guy. You're an a$$hole!

4. You are out of shape! If not come to class tonight and prove how good of a shape you are. I know you won't come you big coward.

Why don't you come down and teach me a lesson Mike? Tonight is submission grappling night. Let me guess...today you're going to get backed over by a garbage truck and can't train for another 2 years.

You can afford to buy a computer and have internet connection, but don't have money to train? Where are your priorities, loser?

Kenneth Sohl,

Mike would never come back and train. He is too much of girly-man. He is a big old dog with no teeth. You know the kind that just keeps on barking and barking (at nothing) and after a while you just want to put a muzzle on him to shut him up.

He'd rather play ninja. Plus he is deathly afraid of me. C'mon Mike, you know it's true.

If you are always beating your training partner (and one of you must be better, even if only marginally), he will never improve, and without a better partner, you will stop improving. There is a point where theoretically, you should both have gotten good enough where in order to help each other get better, you will have to go all out but it is fairly safe because each of you know that the other is capable. I'm not saying one shouldn't spar, I'm just saying that if you spar under unrealistic, artifically created conditions, these same conditions can be exploited to achieve victories that could not be attained under real-world conditions, thereby creating a false sense of confidence with ineffectual technique. I don't understand what is so difficult about using common sense instead of awkward pads and contrived rules during sparring. Mike, that gear you mentioned won't protect against joint-breaks (one reason that in the wood-and-leather armor days of old Japan, joint-breaking and throwing techniques were king), and if I have to mentally be careful anyway, then why bother with the other crap? Also, I've known a couple of okinawan karateka that would smash through that stuff with relative ease. As for Musashi-era sparring, I think you may find that it was rather brutal compared to today's liability-concious contests. Not that padded sparring is worthless, you just have to put it in perspective: like all other training methods, it has its place, but it is only a small piece of the pie and mustn't be stressed at the expense of the other pieces. In training, you break a fight down to its basic components and drill each one. When you put them all back together, then you have a real fight. As for Meynard, where's the love? By the way, what was this string originally about......?

As usual, I stay away from the board for a few days and another thread is ruined. Now I’m pissed at Meynard and Mike.
Take it to the Flame Room.

Sys op's theme song;

Turn my back on the rot, thats been planning the plot because i wanna.
No need for me to wait, because i wanna.
No need two, three, and too late because i wanna.

Hate to say i told you so, i do believe i told you so.

Do what i please, gonna spread the disease..., because i wanna.
Gonna call all the shots, for the nos and the nots..., because i wanna.
Ask me once, i'll answer twice, cause, what i know i'll tell, because i wanna.
Sound device and lots of ice, i'll spell my name out loud... because i wanna.

Huh?
It reminds me to much of the poetry class I had to take in college. Never understood it.

Sorry Sysop! I had to do it. I just couldn't resist. You can slap me around in Xing Yi tonight for my bad behavior. I'll run around until you get tired.

You should give him a muzzle and high doze of sedatives, not a winking face.

g

Don't worry George...Sysop will give me a beating soon enough. I'm counting the hours until Xing Yi class.

Pain...lots of pain.

You guys seriously need to eat more quiche, villify Charlton Heston, dump paint on peoples' fur coats, become more concious of the class struggle, and hate cops while boo-hooing about the death penalty.

Villify Charleton Heston? Are you mad?