San Ti and Wuchi, which one is Xingyi's Foundation?

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: San Ti and Wuchi, which one is Xingyi's Foundation?

   By Mike Sigman on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:21 am: Edit Post

Moose sez:

"Sorry for causing the counfusion, I thought the E in SRE refers to "Exercise" which Walter described in the Ground Connection thread."

Well, maybe it's better to look at a "SRE" (silk reeling exercise) as any movement practiced with correct body mechanics that is not a form. You can take a certain move out of any form and practice it as a SRE or you can use one of the "made for general body practice" type of SRE's.


"If SRE is done as a single movement form then it's corresponding to the 5 element; if it's done very slowly to look for the "subtance" than it may be the same idea as the Testing Power in Yiquan. Regardless, it's a shame that most of the Xinyi being taught today has the 5 elements and Santi but nothing in between."

Well, the 5 elements are basic movement exercises, but the thrust of them is more in line with "different ways to practice power output using different dantien rotations". I think what you're trying to get at is more in line with the Xinyi neigongs. The particular practices that are "between Santi and Wu Xin" are to be found in various neigongs. Don't forget that for the most part yiquan gets its practices from Xinyi/Xingyi. I.e., there's little in yiquan that isn't found in Xingyi, it's just less obvious to people that aren't familiar with all that Xingyi/xinyi has to offer.

FWIW

Mike


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:02 am: Edit Post

Point of clarification. I'm not one to normally do this, nor do I think Mike needs my help in any way shape or fashion.

Iron Moose,
Mike is more knowledgeable in this than I am, as he has studied more directly with competent teachers, he has been practicing six harmonies movement and releated exercises for at least 20 years if I am correct compared with my 4, and he has done mounds of research and dedicated practice.

I'm happy to share what little I know, but I don't know all that much really.


   By IronMoose on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:03 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, Walter. Without an honest person like Mike the whole North America may be full of Taichi bubbles.

I sometimes mixed up the words Yiquan and Xingyi/Xinyi because IMHO the core of Yiquan is Xinyi coupled with the body frame of Xingyi interpreted in a modern language. When I look at physical forces etc I use the Yiquan vocabulary, when I study "qi" and a move like Piquan I switch to Xingyi.

1. Can someone from a pure Xingyi/Xinyi background talk about the neigongs between Santi and Wu Xin?
2. What do you practice that's between Santi and Stepping?


   By Tim on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit Post

Most systems of Xingyiquan have repetitive movement exercises that are practiced in place (without steps), they are usually done quite slowly and are patterned after the Five Elements with some auxiliary movements. They are commonly referred to as 'Nei Gong' training, and are the equivalent of the stationary 'Shi Li' training in Yi Quan. These Nei Gong exercises are usually taught after San Ti, and before the student begins to learn the actual Five Element forms.


   By IronMoose on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:09 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
That makes a lot of sense. You move in place after Santi before you can move your steps. What are the forces you are looking at in these exercises and in what order?


   By Tim on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:57 pm: Edit Post

Moose,
It depends on which system you learn I imagine, the set I learned followed the sequence of the Five Elements, so the exercises focused on 1.downward energy 2.upward energy 3.forward (horizontal) energy 4.energy moving from the inside outward 5.energy moving from the outside inward. In addition, there are exercises which train the leg method (almost identical to the stationary 'cross kick' movement practiced in Yi Quan) and exercises which emphasize movements of the of the torso (called 'body method).


   By IronMoose on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 04:59 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
Have you written about those exercises into your book? Or any book with materials on this subject will be very helpful. What you have described sounds like:
1.Guo(down) 2.Zuan(up) 3.Jian(horizontal)
4&5 is like Tun (swallow) To (opposite of swallow:)) or Kai(opening) He(closing)

Just random thoughts.


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 05:22 pm: Edit Post

here's one of my random thoughts:

I'm glad small children don't burst into flames when I laugh.


   By Tim on Friday, November 08, 2002 - 09:30 am: Edit Post

Mosse,
No, that information is not in my books.


   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 12:33 pm: Edit Post

Tim,

Hello! You wrote "...the set I learned followed the sequence of the Five Elements, so the exercises focused on 1.downward energy 2.upward energy 3.forward (horizontal) energy 4.energy moving from the inside outward 5.energy moving from the outside inward."

Luo taught us five Xing-Yi power exercises at his seminar (which you were kind enough to correct some of my misunderstandings on later). I still don't have a complete understanding of them all. Please help:

1. SPLITTING: DOWNWARD ENERGY
2. DRILLING: UPWARD ENERGY
3. SMASHING: FORWARD (HORIZONTAL) ENERGY
4. ____?____: INSIDE-to-OUTWARD ENERGY
5. ____?____: OUTSIDE-to-INWARD ENERGY

Is #4 CROSSING & #5 POUNDING???


   By Tim on Wednesday, November 13, 2002 - 04:57 pm: Edit Post

The most common translation for the Five Elements Fists is:

Pi Quan: Splitting Fist ("pi" is literally the verb 'to split'). Energy moving downward.

Zuan Quan: Drilling Fist ("zuan" is the verb used to describe drilling or boring a hole). Energy rising upward.

Beng Quan: Crushing Fist ("beng" is the verb most commonly used to describe the force of an avalanche). Energy moving forward.

Pao Quan: Pounding Fist ("Pao" is the word for a cannon). Energy moving from the inside outward.

Heng Quan: Crossing Fist ("Heng" refers to things that lay or move horizontally). Energy moving from the outside inward.


   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, November 14, 2002 - 09:17 am: Edit Post

Thanks Tim,

In "Xing Yi Quan Xue The Study of Form-Mind Boxing" By Sun Lu Tang / Albert Liu / Dan Miller (ISBN 9-781883-175030) "Pounding Fist" appears to be a "block" (applied from inside outward: low to high) accompanied by a contrappostal-like "Smashing Fist" applied slightly cross-body (from outside inward), while the power exercise I was taught specifically trained only this "blocking" motion. From this, is it reasonable for me to assume that all palm-down chopping motions going from inside outward are meant to use this same "feel" (lat muscle widening as shoulder pushed forward & down -- elbow "heavy";)?

And on "Crossing Fist" I'm really quite confused that it's outside inward, because both the book & my notes on the respective power exercise -- while slightly different -- have a "tearing" motion in which one hand goes from a forward position back towards it's respective hip while the other hand comes from a more rearward position & continues forward -- all while arms twist so that it appears to me that the "strike" (if any) is palm-up from inside slightly outward & forward (hitting with the thumb side of the hand: the opposite end of a typical "hammer-fist";); and this has always made me wonder about its application.

Although I chose to specialize in my study of "Splitting Fist" (in an attempt to learn to move like a wave -- which is what I thought my Tai-Jutsu instructor wanted me to do), I learned the basics of "Drilling Fist" from its form. And looking at "Crushing Fist" I see a reasonable comparison to Dempsey's "Steping Straight Jolt" (from "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggresive Defense" by Jack Dempsey, 1950/Prentice-Hall or 1978/1983/Centerline Press, ISBN 0-913111-00-7), so I've got a good idea of what it is & how to pull it off.

If you can clarify "Pounding Fist" & "Crossing Fist" (esp. crossing fist's outside inward motion) I would appreciate it (once again) -- thanks.


   By Buddy on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 08:06 am: Edit Post

Hi Mike,
I'm not Tim but let me give a shot. If you think of the principle of Heng rather than it's technique imagine this scenario. You're facing a right foot/hand lead. Opponent throws a lead hand (which you parry) and a cross which you parry (using a Heng-type motion). You now have his back hand over (and crossing) his lead leg, a very precarious position for him. Add a diagonal step to the outside of his lead leg... you see the picture.
I'm sure Tim's answer will be more forthcoming.
Buddy


   By Mike Taylor on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:48 am: Edit Post

Buddy,

If I'm picturing this correctly in my mind, then I still reach the same conclusion. BUT...

PERHAPS I'M DEFINING IN & OUT INCORRECTLY. My current understanding of what's in & out is (conceptually) based upon standing with squared shoulders, looking straight ahead, feet forward (natural/Wu-Ji posture); if I then raise my right hand up & to my right side I consider that my right hand is "outside" (or "out";); if, while keeping my arm stiff at shoulder level, I were to move my right arm until my right hand was directly in front of my left shoulder, then I would call this an "inward" motion with my right hand ending "inside" (or "in";); if I then moved my right arm back so that my right hand was pointing to my right side again, then I would call this an "outward" movement: my hand once again ending "outside" (or "out";).

The only way I can "see" the Heng/Crossing exercise/beginning form moving from outside inward is if I REDEFINE what's in & out in some way, OR, if I'M DOING THE EXERCISE INCORRECTLY & I"M MISUNDERSTANDING THE BOOK'S INSTRUCTIONS (and that's possible) -- so here's a description of the power exercise for Heng/Crossing (as I have it noted):

"Narrow Horse Stance; hands fisted, lead palm up (arm not too far extended -- like [drilling fist*]), rear hand palm down at waist...

a) open lead hand & turn to thumb-down position...

b) grasp (make fist) w/lead hand & twist palm up..

c) rear hand moves palm up under lead forearm
...(X-fashion) as lead hand moves (first palm up)
...rearward -- to turn palm down at waist."

The only outside inward motion I see is in (c) as the rear hand moves from hip inward across the body to under the lead forearm (X-fashion) -- but there's no power in that part of the exercise (as far as I can see, the power comes right after during the tearing motion when the lead hand retracts as the rear hand advances & then arcs outward).

Do you see my source of confusion? Striking with the forward-moving, arcing hand with power (as I understand it's a power exercise) would mean to strike with the thumb-side of my hand (something done in Tai-Jutsu, jabbing against some soft targets, or lightly tapping against choice hard ones). Striking this way with power could mean a busted thumb (if a hard object were accidentally struck -- ouch!). Unless of course there's an angle to the striking hand directing the large knuckle(s) of the hand into the target (then breakage is less likely; but that's still inside outward by my reasoning).

Help me Mr. Wizard (er, Tim)... :)


   By Mike Taylor on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:59 am: Edit Post

Buddy...

OH! You mean the principle of CROSSING MY OPPONENT so that HIS ARM MOVES FROM OUTSIDE HIS TORSO INWARD ACROSS HIS TORSO! I get your drift now (sorry I missed it at first as I was taking an ego-centric viewpoint). Fine, but then wouldn't one have to define the other four energies in relation to what happens to an opponent (much as Tim describes throws as arcs, circles, & spirals based upon how the opponent moves thru space when thrown)? I'm going to assume for now that those who've named these energies did so from a fairly consistent (& most-likely ego-centric) viewpoint -- 'til I learn otherwise.

Thanks anyway (I always appreciate & prefer thought-provoking posts like yours -- as oppossed to merely provoking or completely brain-dead posts). :)


   By Mike Taylor on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 11:17 am: Edit Post

Buddy...

Me again (still)...you may be onto something...

I can think of these energies (both ways) as me splitting an opponent in two (so he drops/falls downward); or me boring out an opponent (so he is lifted up -- with a twist); me crushing an opponent (so that he bears the bulk of my full, falling & yet forward-moving weight); or me pounding an opponent (so that he's hit as if with the muzzle-blast rolling out from a cannon); or me crossing an opponent (so that his options of countering my next move are "tied up" -- that is so that he's in his own way).

Pending clarification from Tim, I'll adopt this multi-view. Thanks (like I said, your post was thought provoking -- even if I'm running the wrong way with this, you've got me thinking). :)


   By Shane on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 01:50 pm: Edit Post

dude.


   By IronMoose on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit Post

You guys got me thinking too. So excuse me if I sound crazy with my two helpless pennies:

1. These arm exercise help you understand what goes on inside your body, so visualizing an opponent may confuse yourself. Just a thought.

2. Perhaps we can look at this outward Pao vs inward Heng problem from the point of intention, afterall your intention directs the direction of your energy.

Pao is like a spinning umbrella, your intention is outside the umbrella, your energy spins outward. Heng is like pulling the two end of a string to close a knot, your intention is the center of the knot, the energy closes inward.


   By Tim on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:36 pm: Edit Post

Heng Quan is not a strike in the classic sense, you don't "punch" someone with it. Heng is the energy of rotation (called "Luo Xuan Jing" or Spiral Power) that moves in a horizontal path. The power is transfered through the rotating arms in opposite directions simultaneously as the arms pass one another (one arm extending, with the forearm rotating palm upward; one arm retracting, with the forearm rotating palm downward). The power of the body transfers through the rotating arms and contacts the opponent at a tangent (along the outsides of the arms) as opposed to through the fist.

The energy is very similar to the "Fan Zhang" or Overturning Palm movement of Ba Gua Zhang and the "Peng" or Wardoff movement of Tai Ji Quan. This type of energy forms the foundation of all three IMA (this is the reason Heng Quan is referred to as the "Mother Element" ).


   By IronMoose on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:44 pm: Edit Post

After my last post I got an new idea. Perhaps we can explain Pao and Heng with modern terminalogy: Pao is centrifugul force and Heng is centripetal force.

In the 5-element that I learned Pi, Zuan, and Beng all go straight, whereas Pao zipzags forward and Heng goes in a "S" curve. Whoever designed this system must be trying to tell us something about their major forces: Pi, Zuan, and Beng move in a vertical plane, Pao and Heng move in a horizontal plane. It's only a mathematical abstration, of course, any movement should exhibit all 5 types of forces.


   By Mike Taylor on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 09:17 pm: Edit Post

Tim,

I've got it now. I've used it a lot in sparring practice & just didn't know that it was called Heng/Crossing energy (my definitions of "outside" & "inside" were incorrect for understanding this energy -- & I was erroneously thinking that Xing-Yi used this as a fisted blow). Thanks for the correction. It all makes sense to me now. :)

Iron Moose,

Thanks for trying to help me (you're correct about it being more of an internal thing). Based upon what I now know intellectually from Tim & from the feelings I get when going thru the motions of the Pao/Pounding & Heng/Crossing power exercises I conclude that the energies are thus:

Pao/Pounding Energy: Inside Outward (from shoulders back -- pulling in -- shoulder blades nearly touching -- going in towards your backbone, then moving to a position where the shoulders are pushed forward & down -- outward -- away from your backbone, lat muscles widening), mostly using a rotating forearm to apply pressure.

Heng/Crossing: Outside Inward (from shoulders forward -- away from backbone, then moving to a position where shoulder blades come in towards the backbone -- much like the upper back moves when rowing a boat), mostly using twisting forearms (or hand & opposite forearm) to apply pressure.

Heng/Crossing is a movement that causes an unbalancing &/or dropping of your opponent while it feels as if you didn't really do anything to cause this -- it's really cool (I just hadn't made the connection 'til now... so now I can practice yet another exercise with intent). I'm just one of those slow learners.

But I'm such a happy camper now. Thanks guys :)


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