Recently some people in Wushuweb, which is perhaps the largest martial arts community site in China discussed an interesting topic, "Which one is the foundation of Xingyi, San ti or Wuchi?". Most people believed there were both important but nobody had given a clear answer as to which one to practices first and how long one has to stick with one before doing the other.

After reading Barry's thread on "Yiquan - combat post" I got interested in Wuchi again: do you do Wuchi post? In which stage of your training? Do you do it before or after your other training during a day's session? For how long? How do you like it.

Wuchi, or Wuji refers to the posture where your arms are hanging by the side of your body. For those of you who read Chinese, you can reference to this thread to read the original discussion: http://www.wushuweb.com/wushubbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9990&FORUM_ID=64&CAT_ID=15

Moose and Barry

Barry, I think you missed Tims' reply. For a long time, I was able to increase the 'three circle post' by only five seconds a day, and that was pretty rough. Only your own experience can tell you the diference between pushing yourself too hard or not pushing enough. My goal of one hour for this position took one year, but at the seven minute mark it seemed impossible.

Moose, The 'wuchi' (arms loose at sides) gave me great, even tremendous benefits, mainly releasing muscular tension, balance, using only those muscles necessary to hold the position, awareness of some body 'linkages', and allowing my body to be 'natural' and move as it wants.

I was fascinated when I learned I could rotate my torso simply by flexing a muscle in my shin or a toe.

Mark, since we went off-topic and Barry seems to have gotten his answers already, I am starting a new thread on the "wuchi" posture, please be sure to give us your insights.

I would like to reply to Ironmoose, hope I'm not off-topic.

A posture is just a posture, not 'cause I say so but because it's evident. The main idea of yiquan (and yes, yi is intention..) is to regain some natural power hidden within. Images were given from Wang to his students to explain them how to focus but he stated MANY times that, as a matter of facts, they were just images..To learn how to relax is not standing there, fixed like a needle, but quite a different thing. The goal is to be relaxed always, without thinking, the mind being relaxed as well. Some people were told to use images but the truth is that after having gained that particular relaxed status you do not think of it anymore, it has become natural. The Bao standing post is not an idol, it has exactly the same value of any other standing posture (and sitting and lying): no one if you are not relaxed. The truth is that Bao is the perfect average of every posture and this is the reason why Wang always refused to be too specific about how it should be performed. Developing your imagination itself will be of no use, detrimental I would say. Grasp the feeling of relaxation from some simple relaxed motion (swing arms i.e.), 'install' into yourself standing (and sitting and lying down)in Bao posture and in every other EASY posture at the beginning. When you'll be relaxed (mind and body) for a decent time (20 min or so) you will try more fatiguing postures ('combat'ones). Eyes closed, breathing natural, attention (Yi..) towards yourself inside. When you can feel good and light in a posture -many times a day- that before was very difficult for you, then you are relaxed. At this point you'll move forward to 'install' perfect (total) contraction using postures as well. After you can focus 101% and contract all your body at the same time aiming to a target(lots of Yi..) you will combine their interaction in a super-fast explosion of sheer power. In the proceeding to this stage you will have changed the way you perceive things, yourself and then everything. Sensation of the outside world will be quite different and your body will be very different from the way it was before your Yi was right there.
Yiqun can be described as a science of motion or a life science 'cause the pratictioner's developement includes everything: body and spirit. It is definitely NOT a science of standing and dreaming only.

[Off topic]Oh, I see, we are using the same term but speaking of different stages here. At the first stage a posture is not the same as any other posture, at the next stage a posture is the same as any other posture. Thanks, European.

Moose

Wuchi, as I understand and practice it, is standing naturally, arms hanging at your sides. Never rigid, but relaxing into the posture. I used the term 'slumping' once before but some folks took that term to extremes.

I did it only three times a week, and worked up to one hour, increasing by no specific amount of time each session. All the benefits I experienced occured before I reached the hour mark.

Very early on, I had pain and tightness in my calfs of my legs which then passed rapidly. I realized that was because I had been using unnecessary muscular tension to hold the position.

Later, my shoulders and neck relaxed, it was a great relief of muscle tension that I didn't even know existed.(that greatly increased my upper body speed).

Relaxing into the posture, my body would sway, i realized my balance and awareness of my center of gravity was improving.

Some people teach that in wuchi the knees should be slight bent to a certain degree and the pevlis moved forward. After some time these both occured to me naturaly.

Sometimes the movement of the pelvis caused a 'sine wave' like effect up my spine (dragon back/spinal wave)

It is said of some old master that his body was so loose/responsive that a fly landing on him would set his whole bodi in motion. My body became relaxed enough that by tensing a toe or a shin muscle would cause my upper body to rotate.

My body would feel like a weight resting upon a spring (my legs). Altogether, this gave me the relaxed looseness, whip like arms, and pendulum/rubber band effect which is discussed by both Tim and Erle Montaigue.

Even having had this development, it took some time to experience the same effects in the three circle post (Knees bent, arms extended).

Mark, could you repost your message to my "Santi and Wuchi" thread so that we don't wonder off topic here? I like your post a lot; I like the quality of the conversation in this board. How I wish you can write in Chinese so that you can join discussion with those fellows in China!

Sorry Moose

I looked for another thread and didn't find it. Don't know how to transfer it, perhaps Sysop can do it for me.

I can write in Korean characters but my vocabulary is far too small to be usefull here.

I really don't read what is being posted on the board for the most part. I just look for profanity,etc. I also don't understand allot of these threads and don't realize it's deviated unless people start fighting. The word SysOp caught my eye.
I appreciate you trying not to deviate off the thread.

Thanks again gentleman;
Ron

Moose

One thing I should have included. After a while my wuchi became very stable and there were no further changes. After a while at that point I figured that I wasn't going to get much more out of it and moved on to the three circle post.

It is possible I could get much more if I incorporated breathing techniques into the standing practice, but I usually do them while watching tv.

Should have said I watched tv while standing, sometimes just as a distraction. Standing without distraction and controling my breathing probably would have been much better.

Since this topic is really interesting, I would like to add my opinion (once again, hope not being boring).
First: why standing? What's so special in doing it (wuchi, bao or any other posture). Of course standing correctly we learn to root, to regulate the posture and have the chance to relax. But, again, why standing? We stand because we reduce the motion to its very essential unity, and only this way we can perceive the real quality of motion. In the path to learn to bring our potential to its full expression we need to have understood the nature of motion and its dominator, gravitation. How could we ever manifest an integrated motion if its parts are all disconnected? Through zang zhuang we re-learn the science of motion, to be here and now. After having learned how to be relaxed in any posture (bao being the average of all postures) and thus having re-estabilshed a natural condition, we can move forward and create the feeling of tension while standing. The body follows the mind, then if we want to explode at maximum speed and force that is possible, we need to have thought our mind to stand still and ready. Of course this will be impossible moving if we don't know how to do it in every single part of the desired motion, the result being an 'empty' thing (looks good 'cause is fast but inherently weak).

Mark, when your wuchi became very stable and there were no further changes, you could have started doing the "subtle movement", which is the gateway into understanding the "conflicting force". I am not there yet so perhaps somebody else can explain this "subtle movement". Also, what's "three circle post"?

European, could you explain how to "reduce the motion to its very essential unity", and when do you know you are "relaxed"?

A friend of mine suggested that I put my arms down so that I can focus on my waist, legs, and feet. Wuji doesn't look very macho, maybe that was the reason I didn't pay much attention to it before. Has anybody gone back to Wuji from other Health posts, or from combat post back to Health post or even Wuji? What's your experience?

Ironmoose,
let's see motion like a movie and the single motion (posture) like one frame of this movie. Taking motion there where it starts (the first frame of the movie) we have 'reduced motion to its very essential unity'. We will go forward working on all frames (or at least major ones). When all frames are performed correctly, relaxed, we start creating very slight tension aiming to a target.
Relaxation can be detected by tactile screening but usually a self-theaching person starts doing a relaxed motion (for ist. swinging arms just by turning hips) MANY times a day and suddendly, when he has awakened that sensation (the 'dead' arm) he goes forward 'installing' it through stillness (closed eyes and introspection). As soon as he can feel good and light performing every easy posture (parallel stance)for 20 mins or so, he will try more difficult postures and moving while relaxed. Relaxation will be awakened and re-installed MANY times a day untill it becomes completely natural (acquired) and there's almost no need to 'do' it anymore.But this is difficult to explain in writing (easy when seen, anyway).
I would like to point that there are yiquan students who can keep Bao stance for 30/40 mins and NOT be relaxed; their motion is graceless and powerless..

This site has very much to offer , it's a little treasure: www.yiquando.com.
Check it out.

How interesting, only recently I was hoping I would find the money and time next year to visit Han and see what his new 3-stage training was about. The division of relaxation, tightness and relaxation-tightness seems to have addressed a big issue for beginners. How is his training addressing the issue of "quiet mind"?

A quiet mind lives in a quiet body and viceversa.
Infact the two things just being one identity: mind/body. Solving the yiquan riddle about relaxation: how can I be relaxed and not being relaxed at the same time. As Tim says, the mind cannot stop thinking 'cause that's its business. It's a matter of awareness, IronMoose. Bring your yi (attention) towards inside at first and just stay there, listening. Don't 'imagine' or push your will, stay there and listen. Bring your attention towards major body parts and more and more deeper (NO HURRY!), untill your yi is in every cell at the SAME time. You and your body finally are one now, solving the yiquan riddle. Needless to say that this path is long, but to achieve relaxation with the right method it may take weeks, not yrs. for sure.
I've met many yiquan teachers from China (2 & 3 gener.), some really good, but their students where unable to fight, they were unable to solve the yiquan riddle.

p.s.
I lived and studied with one of Han's most prominent students for two weeks. Then with Mr. Han himself. He can do the job, my friend, he can teach you to teach yourself.

Moose

Three circle post is just another name for what is probably the most common post. Knees bent to over the toes, arms extended forward, many variations of this are used by folks.

hello European,

What in your experience do you consider the most important factors to relaxation in weeks rather than years.

Do you call yourself european because you are in Europe?

Ed

Hi Ed,

yes, I'm in the good Old Europe.

I've met yiquan (and taichi, and yoga etc.)pratictioners from 4 continents and they were unable to solve the yiquan (relaxation)riddle. Their teachers told them 'relaxation is the most important thing' but they could not explain what relaxed is, just show a method. What is relaxed? They could not explain, just show a path they had followed. Here then people spent YEARS practicing but never getting relaxed, going nowhere. Do you understand? They are just imitating, wasting a lot of time.
The Second Course of yiquan is not about showing a method and leaving yourself with the duty to solve the riddle, instead is about passing a feeling , then solving the riddle right away. It's hard to describe this in writing, I know, but with the proper cognition the 5 stages of yiquan can be thought in about 1-1,5 year. After that you're free to go ahead along your way.