Baji, Ancestor of Hsing-Yi?

Tim's Discussion Board: Xing Yi Quan: Baji, Ancestor of Hsing-Yi?

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit Post

LOL, thanks guys, you're the best. I knew this would be a good forum to interact with!


   By Brickpolisher (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 11:33 am: Edit Post

The story goes that Piqua and Baji were originally practiced together in Meng Cun, but after Wu Rong (Wu Zhong's daughter) moved to Luotong after she got married she taught only Piqua, while the people left behind in Meng Cun practiced mainly Baji. This led to separate Baji and Piqua lineages. Years later Master Li Shu Wen (who someone mentioned above regarding his spear to sword developments - he lived from 1864 to 1934) joined them back together again.

I think the foregoing discussion has shown that we view history through the lens of more recent history. I'm interested to ask does anyone from a Baji style that is not descended from Li Shu Wen have infomation that corroborates the fact that the two arts were practiced together at the time of Wu Zhong?

For the Xing Yi people (just incase they think their discussion group is now about Baji :-) ) the same kind of question..... Does anyone from a Xing Yi style that is not descended in some way from Dai Lin Bang or Dai Long Bang practice any kind of five elements forms?


   By Daredev1l (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:36 pm: Edit Post

Let's see if we can discuss about lineage without resorting to heavier artillery. I don't see why we couldn't though, but that's how talking about lineage usually goes. :-)

My understanding of Baji history -- as told by my teacher (and secondarily as heard/read from third-hand accounts) -- mirrors your's. Let's see what I can add to it with the disclaimer that I may very well be wrong in all my speculation.

I have only a few notes on lineage, re: Baji in general and the Baji I practise. With certainty, my teacher's line (or one of them) comes from Han Huiqing (from Luotong) who learned from Zhang Jingxing (son and student of Zhang Keming).

It seems a few of the masters in Baji's past (and also current) learned from several sources. Somewhere in that mixture may lie the re-union of Baji and Pigua.

I seem to recall that Li Shu Wen also learned from Zhang Jingxing, but that perhaps he learned also from someone else.

Looking at my notes, and while it sounds a bit odd, it is possible -- and this is based on speculation based on third-hand information and not from my teacher -- that perhaps Zhang Jingxing taught Pigua and that Han Huiqing picked up Baji separely from Li Shu Wen who had learned it somewhere else.

Dunno and just to be sure, not that it matters much, but it can be interesting from a scholarly perspective.


   By Brickpolisher (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 05:09 am: Edit Post

Thanks daredevil,

I agree it's all scholarly and not all that important (but you could say that about virtually anything on this discussion board) current practice is what's important of course.

One story goes that Li Shu Wen (who was from Zhang Sha) went to Luotong for the express purpose of learning Piqua - which he learned there from Huang Si Hai - I'm now wondering how he is related to Han Huiqing and if he's the same person as Han Huachen. Another problem with discussing this stuff is that many of the people involved had multiple names.

Based on your notes I'd say the story may be true but the other way around - that it was Baji that was "added" to Piqua. I have a note that Li Shu Wen learned Baji from Jin Dai Sheng who was from Meng Cun.

All of these people were from the same county - Cang, so I guess you could say that they were all at least aware of each other earlier than Zhang Jingxing.

My problem with the "standard line" revolves around the Wu Rong story and is entirely practical. The story goes that Piqua was somehow easier or less difficult to teach than Baji so that's at least one reason why she dropped Baji when she went to Luotong. I just don't agree that that is the case.

It could be argued that she just liked or was more suited to Piqua, and dropped Baji for no more reason than that, but an equally valid explanation would be that Piqua came from a different source in Luotong, such as Wang Si. The latter would explain why non-Luotong lineages (such as Wu style) seem to have no Piqua at all.

On the Xing Yi (Hsin I, Yue Fei Quan or whatever) side it would appear that while most styles have animals, not all have five elements. To me this puts into question the assertion that the animals are further explanations or extensions of the five elements. Xing Yi may have come mainly from the animals originally and the five elements were possibly a later "simplified" addition along the lines of "Do"s coming out of "Jutsu"s. I'd be very happy if it were found that the animal Xings turned out to be more historically original than the five elements forms, (although obviously not in their contemporary "formized" formats) as this fits better with my practical experience of the art.


   By Daredev1l (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 10:03 am: Edit Post

Hmm, let's see what we can mesh out. The following is the best I can make out from my notes, having taken a good, long look at them.

The original art split in two by Wu Rong, who taught at Luotang. Baji was still taught in Mengcun, but was this the "original" art including Piqua or just the Baji side of things? It sounds a bit odd that the folks at Mengcun would join in the splitting of the arts just because Wu Rong started teaching solely Piqua, but this seems to be case since people do generally talk about the historical split of the two styles, not just an outgrowth of Piqua from Baji.

Then we talk about a later split into two distinctive branches by Baji. The Wu-style (apparently based in Mengcun?) and another branch that was created when Wang Si studied Baji at Mengcun and taught Zhang Keming of Loutong. I wonder though that did Zhang Keming already know Piqua (coming from Luotang) or did he pick it up later? Or not at all?

Li Shu Wen is traditionally said to have united the two styles of Baji and Piqua, though. I have conflicting notes that say he was a) taught by Zhang Jingxing or b) that he was taught Baji by Jin Dai Sheng of Mengcun and Piquazhang by Huang Si Hai of Luotong.

Now, going back to Zhang Keming. He is said to have taught both Huang Si Hai and Zhang Jingxing. There's the oddity. Huang Si Hai is said to have taught Li Shu Wen Piqua, but he seems to have learned (only?) Baji from Zhang Keming. This seems to point out that there is a likelyhood that Baji and Piqua were already taught together by Zhang Keming.

As for where my lineage -- which currently includes both Baji and Piqua -- comes from, Zhang Jingxing taught Han Huachen/Huiqing (I'm fairly certain these are the same person, based on what I've heard from my teacher talking of Han Huiqing and from what I've read/heard elsewhere regarding Han Huachen) who transmitted the art to his son who taught my teacher.

I think it's entirely possible that the separation between Baji and Piqua wasn't so clinical that we can say "from here on until here" the two were separate. Some folks may well have practised both, or parts of both, by perhaps studying with different teachers and by learning from those who knew both. It would be somewhat strange if so suddenly one was taken out of the other and vice versa, without any overlap.

That's the 'mess' as I see it. :-)


   By Daredev1l (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 10:09 am: Edit Post

One more thing to add.

Considering your speculation that if Piqua came from Wang Si, it might be possible then that the two arts would already have united there, when Wang Si went to Mengcun to learn Baji.

Of course, history seems to disagree.


   By RAF (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 09:03 pm: Edit Post

Also note that today, most baji does not employ the entire system of pigua. Pigua is a complete system in and of itself. As far as I know most baji players from the Li Shu Wen ---> Liu Yun Qiao line practice single moving pigua, stationary pigua, body hitting, two forms, hand training with the dog skin, pigua dao, pigua double dao and maybe the spear.

Do any of the other lines incoporate more pigua in the baji/pigua system?

Does anyone know if those of the baji lineage that split it, practiced the complete system of pigua in place of the mix?


   By Daredev1l (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 10:08 am: Edit Post

RAF,

Yes, that's true in at least our case. It seems Piqua is used to "round out" the Baji system. I remember my teacher making a difference between "Piqua-Piqua" and "Baji-Piqua" (so to speak), indicating the difference between the entire Piqua or just the parts incorporated into his Baji.


   By JAB (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 11:34 am: Edit Post

All I can say is that training in Xing Yi has really helped me understand the concepts and some of the jings in my Baji. My Baji has improved ten fold since starting to do Shanxi with Tim. Related? Possibly. Complimentary to each other? Definetly!

JAB


   By Kenneth Sohl on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 11:16 pm: Edit Post

Brickpolisher, from what I can find, you are right that the original Hsing-Yi styles did NOT have "5 elements" as a base. In fact, this seems more an attempt to make martial arts more respectable among wussy scholars who were previously scornful of them, cuz even Tim previously stated on one of these posts that knowledge of the 5 elements cycle added nothing to one's practice, but I'm sure I'll get all kinds of outrageous gasps from the chi huggers at that remark, just as I got when I stated that the 8 trigrams contributed nothing to mastering Bagua.


   By immu (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:06 am: Edit Post

Well, Im not so deep into these scholarly issues, yet. But I would like to know is there any use for me practising baji, since I consider xingyi to be my main interest?
I dont want to hazzle with all the arts, but to learn first one properly (done my time with that too..). So, is there any use for me learning baji? Ive tryied it, but Im more into xingyi. Although, coming from a small rural town where boxing is The Art, I can appreciate the bajis no-bs-attitude.

Secondly, I would like to know about relationship between western-boxing and xingyi. Ive heard some rumours about a survey, but nothing else..

Thirdly, because sparring with my friends, I would like to know possible xingyi-strategies against muay-thai`s shinji-kicks (ouch,ouch) and western boxers in general. How to deal with good boxers? Timing is propably the key, but how?

You have a good spirit on your site, keep it up!

Immu, from Finland

Sorry not to leave my full name, its just that I dont want anyone to googlesize it..


   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:05 pm: Edit Post

Interesting. How close are the strictly animal-style Hsing-Yi's forms to the animal-style forms of 5-element Hsing'Yis'? Also, what the hell is Baji's "training the hand with the dogskin"??


   By Bob (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:08 am: Edit Post

The dogskin training is used for hand development and comes from the pigua system.

We buy coyote skins and use them. You turn the skin inside out. Use about 3 skins, one in center, one to the left and one to the right. Train palm striking and back slapping techniques of pigua. Many of the strikes require plenty of waist movement.

No damage to the hands,no use of medicine. and no magic.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 08:05 am: Edit Post

Bob, thank you. A most interesting new twist on training. I have no idea what the consistency of dogskin (or coyote) might be (shameful for someone with korean blood, I know), I wonder if some kind of leather might make a good substitute?


   By Bob (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:28 am: Edit Post

Kenneth:

They say you should buy the or kill the dog during the fall, when the fur grows thickest in preparation for the winter.

When you turn the skin inside out, the fur provides a lot of give with pockets of air, Inside out also has the feel of human skin. No one has said this but in my experience, it probably gives you a close feel to what its like striking a person and that is why I think they chose this method unlike the Japanese methods where you strike padded material.

In the initial training you simply execute the strikes out of the postures, striking air and utulizing good structural form below the waist. The power is derived from the waist and the hands, arms, shoulders have to be relaxed.

BTW, visted Pusan Korea for a couple of weeks and loved it. Great tradtional food and very safe place.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:20 pm: Edit Post

I was quite little when I went with my dad to Pusan a couple of times, but it is probably very different now from what it was like back then. BTW, is eating of dogs still allowed? I don't think I could bring myself to kill a bowser, but the "drumskin" aspect of the striking surface sounds like it would be quite effective.


   By Bob (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit Post

I begged my hosts to take me to the dog restaurant but they seemed more embarassed.

One last note on the hand training on dog skin. There are many stationary swing arm exercises that you do prior to dog skin training. It relaxes you, makes the upper body flexible and also gets the blood flow the the hand and fingers.

BTW, I did eat some live seafood in Pusan. I only found out after I swallowed and noticed in the bowl that the remainder were moving around.


   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 01:47 am: Edit Post

Ugh! I love korean, Thai, chinese, japanese and Indian foods, but when it comes to seafood, I greatly prefer new england-style. When I was in Korea, there was a push going to ban dog restaurants, it is considered an embarassment by most. My dad claimed to have eaten dog during an army survival course, said it was stringy.

I once saw a demo tape of Pigua, I just remember the tape seemed to revolve around what I can only describe as highly repetitive "super-extreme ridgehand" drills. No targets involved, I imagine this was an example of the exercises you refer to.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password: