Hail,

I have been interested in martial arts my whole life but have never been especially physically fit. Recently I've taken up taekwondo which is very fulfulling but I have also become interested in the internal styles. I've spent a truly stupid amount of money buying every book on qigong, bagua, and taichi that I could find and I now study these books instead of reading.
Sadly, I think I've reached the point in my "studies" that I realize exactly how useless these books are without a qualified instructor and sparring partners. The problem is, first, I live in Texas, and second, I'll soon be entering college, so my time and training resources are very limited.

I've been doing qigong, Taoist meditation, and taichi routinely, but I have no idea whether I'm doing any of it right, and from what I have read this can actually be bad for you. Not only could I be ingraining improper technique but, I am given to understand, I could be giving myself "chi problems."

In short, my question is, how can I pursue this beautiful art without personal instruction for the time being? Is there anything I should specifically not do? Anything anyone could recommend? Heck, should I stop doing internal work entirely and focus on taekwondo until such time as I can find an internal instructor?

Any help at all would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mathias

Mathias, "internal" and "external" are divisions that have a wide variety of interpretations. Here is a fact: "Grand Ultimate", "Eight Tri-grams", and "Five Elements" theories have absolutely NOTHING to do with the fighting arts. The chinese are notorious for looking down on martial artists and weaponry. At the turn of the (20th) century, when even scholars started to get involved in warfare, they needed something to make the practice "respectable", hence the injection of Taoist theories into what were formerly just fighting arts. I know a Yang Tai Chi practitioner who knows it as a combat art, and a Chen Tai Chi practitioner (who is so traditional that he would never teach me because my mother was korean), neither of these men just wave their arms in the air, they have power! But it isn't just using brute strength, there is a way of coordinating the body's joints, so DON'T try to learn it from books. And, if you want to learn it as a fighting art, avoid all the chi huggers and granola bar eaters trying to teach Tai Chi. Do the TKD, cuz it will build your muscles and ligaments and prepare you for the powerful strikes of Hsing-Yi or Bagua. I assume you are still in your early 20s, so now is the time to build your strength, there is nothing wrong with that, it is necessary. If you want it badly enough, you will find a true martial arts teacher on your own eventually.

Mathias,

Hi. I suggest that you review all of the discussion-board material written by Tim, whether it's on Tai-Ji, Xing-Yi, Ba-Gua, or Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Other board members have contributed some very good stuff, but if you stick with Tim's postings, then I know that you'll be well on your way to understanding more about the internal arts.

For starters, pay very close attention to the subject of allignment (again in all of the internal arts discussed on this board). Also, study Tim's movement in each video clip contained in Meynard's Virtual Academy for a dynamic, visual reference (a cool thing about the Virtual Academy is that it uses Quicktime so that you can rerun manually in slow motion to help notice details).

Like Mr. Sohl wrote, you'll eventually find a good internal instructor & some time & funds if you really want to persue learning the internal arts. Now, if you get enough friends/study-partners together, then you could have Tim show up for a seminar, or perhaps you could take a vacation in California by yourself or with some friends & study at the Shen Wu Academy. Some old masters suppossedly started with only one or two short learning sessions a year & became reasonably proficient in short order.

Generally, a little bit of good instruction will get you much further along in your studies than a lot of poor instruction (or no instruction) will.

Hey Mathias,

Where in Texas do you live? I run a training association out here for Tim at New Mexico State Univeristy (in Las Cruces). Maybe you could come workout w/us. If you're near by.

The statement that the eight trigrams or five elements, or other taoist paradigms have nothing to do with internal martial arts, to me is on a par with a cartographer claiming that maps are nothing to do with 'physical reality'.

A map can allow some-one (with map reading skills) to navigate their way through the 'real world' to be able to follow directions to get a specific destination (where they haven't been previously) and to be able to recognise certain topographical features of the landscape along the way, to confirm they are indeed progressing on that path.

No one in their 'right' mind is going to argue that the topographical features of a real 3D landscape are the 'same' as there 2D representations on a map (its a model). But its pretty silly to dismiss the usefullness of the 2D model on account of it being short a dimension.

More likely that people aren't interested or willing to invest the time to obtain the skills necessary to translate between dimensions (like translating between languages), and that's fair enough.

Also while alot of Xing Yi manuals from the turn of the twentieth century had open taoist content there are other manuals from other similar arts going back to the seventeenth and eigthteenth century that have explicit taoist references.

While it may be true that you can 'read' various interpretations into a text, which the author might not have intended, i think most seasoned translators favour a approach somewhere between the literal and the free, mixing straight forwardness with elegance, and faithfulness with expressiveness. Come to think of it you can train and fight like that too.

Sys Op, feel free to move this if it warrants.

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quote:

Mathias, "internal" and "external" are divisions that have a wide variety of interpretations. Here is a fact: "Grand Ultimate", "Eight Tri-grams", and "Five Elements" theories have absolutely NOTHING to do with the fighting arts. The chinese are notorious for looking down on martial artists and weaponry. At the turn of the (20th) century, when even scholars started to get
involved in warfare, they needed something to make the practice "respectable", hence the injection of Taoist theories into what were formerly just fighting arts.

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Only a fool is positive of anything, but apparently, MA historians are generally leaning towards the idea that Tai Chi and Bagua existed before the infusion of the taoist ideals. Old styles of Hsing-Yi still exist that don't include the Five Elements. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that the study of these concepts is useless, just that a good instructor of combat arts can teach you well without complicating your learning with throwing these things in on top of everything else. Since these concepts are all encompassing, you can't help but be in alignment with them whether you realize it or not. But save it for philosophy class. You won't stop somebody from bursting your kidneys by contemplating the I-ching. Sorry, but there are no magic powers, just lots of hard work and time.

Kenneth,

Maybe this is becoming a topic for another thread and my expertise doesn't qualify me to comment on all the systems you mention. I personally place "MA Historians" about as trusted as car salesmen. I have not mentioned anything either about the fortune telling system you mentioned either. But I have never heard of any martial art system that worked without understanding balance.

Understanding the five elements and the 8 trigrams certainly can stop your kidneys from being injured and help healing them when they do. I agree that a good instructor of "combat arts" can teach with out even understanding these things I mentioned in my post but I disagree with the assumtion that a teacher who does understand them automatically isn't teaching combat arts. I think it is a gross generalization that discussions of these things in martial arts classes reduces them to "hippie tai chi" or in my case, bagua and I think flexibility in thinking is key to understanding.

PS I agree with the I-ching or the Tao Te Ching being subjects for philosophy class and I don't remember who I'm quoting. But it is said that even Confucius didn't get it until the end of his life. But when he did, he said, "I wish I had thought of this before". ;)

I greatly appreciate the advice. FYI, I'll be going to Texas A&M at College Station. I fully intend on continuing taekwondo for the rest of my life, but I believe in diversification across styles, which I'm sure most people do.

Even as I advance in taekwondo I notice how such things as infintesimally precise body alignments and angles, and even to an extent the interplay of hard and soft, can be very important.

I must ask for clarification. jeff k, when you say "stand as much as you can" are you referring to the practice of standing for long periods of time for endurance/meditation, or am I being hyperanalytical and you just me "endure as much as you can?"

Thanks for the help.

Ha, LOL :D I meant for endurance and structure.

Jeff K, maybe we aren't disagreeing as much as it seems. You are right, if Mathias understands hard and soft, it will help his TKD. My point is that he doesn't need to start studying about the Tao to do this. It seems that you are referring to understanding how these principles apply to combat movements. Then you are absolutely right. I'm saying that one doesn't need to study the philosphies themselves as they go far beyond mere combat, unless one wishes to take it farther than just fighting (which is very worthy). And no, I would never suggest that a teacher that understood these concepts wasn't teaching combat arts. Peace.

Also, looking back on my previous post, when I said that these concepts had "absolutely nothing" to do with the combat arts, I meant in terms of how they originated, and their practical applications. I also mentioned that these concepts were inherent in everything anyway, so are inescapable. By the way, you are probably right about the historians

are you positive about that, Kenneth?

heheh.