Archive through February 28, 2003

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: Western Boxing: Archive through February 28, 2003
   By Brian Kennedy on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 03:15 am: Edit Post

I thought it meant the mix of scrambling for a buck and the daily trouble of life. Great word no matter what it defination.

Tim, here is your quote in context. Let me know if this is okay. I hope to send the article along to Dragon Times in the next few days:

It is common to think of the west taking from the east when it comes to martial arts but it often goes the other way around. During the Republican period there was a major interest in western boxing. (See book illustrations).

For example in 1934 a book entitled ¡§Western Boxing¡¨ was translated with commentary by Chen Ting-rui. Chen¡¦s translation does not ¡§bother¡¦ to mention who the original author was. It would seem to have been a British boxing book; that assumption is based on some of the English language phrases which are reproduced in the Chinese translation; e.g. ¡§chancery hold¡¨.

There is no indication that this book was specifically translated for use in the military but interest in western military training was quite in vogue at the time and it is likely that the translation had some military readership.

It is clear that western boxing figured in the training of Republican era and later Chinese armies. Noted Chinese martial arts researcher and teacher Tim Cartmell says; ¡§When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts; including their own. The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques, when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time, were superior to all others; including their own. Other Chinese hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing. Western boxing was apparently taught at the Nanjing Central Martial Arts institute in the 1930's and was later researched and incorporated into the Red Army San Shou in the 1960's¡¨.

[note, the article itself is not about western boxing but about military martial arts training manuals]

take care,

   By Meynard on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 11:54 am: Edit Post

Hey Brian,

I can't wait to read the whole article!!!

   By Tim on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 02:06 am: Edit Post

Hey Brian,
Sounds good. I'm looking forward to the article as well.

PS What ever happened to Mr. Liu's big meeting of the top martial artists? Did you go?

   By internalenthusiast on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 03:26 am: Edit Post

hi, Tim. Scrumble? what's the definition of this wonderful word; why did the Japanese invent it?

I'm sorry, but it sounds a lot like the world we live in. Especially lately.

I'm curious...

best, and, as always, great board...

   By Tim on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 06:49 pm: Edit Post

I'm not really sure what 'scrumble' means either. Probably because the scrumble of everyday life keeps me too occupied to think about it much.

   By Bob #2 on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 07:27 pm: Edit Post

"it's the scrumble... in the jungle....
but it's alright... by me"

Obviously Jethro Tull coined the word. He was one of my favorite singers.

   By internalenthusiast on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 08:57 pm: Edit Post

thanks Tim. :)

   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 09:34 am: Edit Post

err thats Bungle in the jungle, lets avoid getting thick as a brick, shall we?

   By Bob #2 on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 11:56 am: Edit Post

Bungle isn't even a word. I met Jethro once after a show... he said scrumble was right.

   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 12:13 pm: Edit Post

Main Entry: bun·gle
Pronunciation: 'b&[ng]-g&l
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bun·gled; bun·gling /-g(&;-)li[ng]/
Etymology: perhaps of Scandinavian origin; akin to Icelandic banga to hammer
Date: 1549
intransitive senses : to act or work clumsily and awkwardly
transitive senses : MISHANDLE, BOTCH
- bungle noun
- bun·gler /-g(&;-)l&r/ noun
- bun·gling·ly /-g(&;-)li[ng]-lE/ adverb

as opposed to:

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the Dictionary search box to the right.

Suggestions for scrumble:
1. scramble
2. scumble
3. crumble
4. scumbled
5. scrambles
6. screwball

Hell, I'll research anything. ;->

BTW, was Jethro hanging with Ian when you met him backstage?

   By Bob #2 on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post


   By stc on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 06:29 pm: Edit Post

hey Roberto Nuemeros Dos

such repartee.. it's as if Oscar Wilde had come back to life and gone all digital..


   By SysOp on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 08:16 am: Edit Post

Create a new thread if you guys want to keep talking about Scrumble.

   By Just a guy (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 07:49 pm: Edit Post

I kind of think boxing is good, but a little too simple. I think it would be easier to learn a real martial art (as almost all martial arts are superior to boxing) like wing chun or tai chi, as they by far are superior and also take a relatively short time to learn.

   By Edward Hines (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:00 am: Edit Post

Just a guy,
have you ever boxed or sparred with boxers
I'm just curious

   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:47 am: Edit Post

In terms of self-defense skills, I would put my money on an experienced western boxer (even an older, out-of-shape exponent) who has to fight any type of modern martial artist, black belt or not.

Boxing has had it's ups-and-downs over the decades but the "sweet science" is just as profound in its principles and techniques as any of the other martial arts when it is well-taught and well-practised. It has the advantage of simplicity and its only disadvantages are that the stamina and conditioning required make it only a young man's art.

Years ago I was friends with a 50 year-old man who was learning taiji "for fun"; he had been an amateur and professional boxer and still trained and coached young boxers. It was both funny and sad to see him flatten the younger and fitter taiji instructors who sparred with him at the school where we trained.

Anyone who says an experienced boxer is automatically inferior to a traditional martial artist in combative terms has never had the experience of being hit by one.

   By Dragonprawn on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit Post

Just a Guy,

Boxing is not simple.

Tai Chi cannot be learned in a short time.

But if boxing were too simple why would learning most MAs be easier?

   By Tim on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:38 pm: Edit Post

As far as martial arts go, they dont get much more "real" than boxing.

   By Michael Posch on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:18 am: Edit Post

While I also think boxing is "real," I really do think it has its limitations. How does a boxer deal with someone who's got great kicks, especially kicks that go to career damaging places, such as the knees. A boxer cannot defend himself well against this. If I were to fight a boxer, thats probably all I'd do - kick, and make sure my kicks get the job done. And how would they deal in ground fighting? Comprehensive training in the Martial Arts will allow you to work under any condition. It seems more balanced of an approach in comparison to boxing.

   By chris hein on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 03:03 pm: Edit Post

funny how every one gets kind of defensive when they start comparing styles, especially fully when you realize that styles are just a means of learning principals that are concreat and owned by no style at all! Boxing is sound in it's principals(read championship boxing) and more importantly they spar all the time, so they have the skills to use the principals in RELATIONSHIP. That is they can deal with another living person in real life and do it using the correct methods of body use they have learned. most "on the corner" karate schools don't teach this, it doesn't mean karate is bad, or tae kwon do, or kung fu, it only means that they are lacking in a piece of the "game", just like boxing is missing a piece of the "game" by only doing hand techniques.
understanding tricks is cool, understanding techniques is ok, understanding principals is better, and knowing relationship is the best-it's not that boxing is "better" then anything else, it's that boxers have a means of learning how to really use what they know.